Guest Blog - Fishing For Toxins (part 1 of 2)

Sunday, December 6, 2009

Today's Guest Blog is a 2-parter brought to you by Erik Davis, and is titled, Fishing For Toxins.  
 
Part 2 will be published on Dec 10.  
 
Fishing for Toxins (Part 1)

One of the things that has continually struck me about the H1N1 debate is just how much of the dialogue has revolved around the presence of mercury in the vaccine. It’s not that people’s fear over consuming a heavy metal is surprising, nor the jaundiced eye with which the government’s safety assurances are being viewed. It’s just how different these responses have been from those over mercury consumption in fish. After all, the government has issued actual warnings about mercury levels in fish, yet we haven’t seen nearly the public backlash against fish that we have against vaccines.

In this article, I’m going to attempt to answer the question of why this may be the case, drawing on some of research into how humans assess risks in their environment. In a followup article scheduled for Thursday, I’ll be looking more deeply at the actual risk of mercury in fish, and evaluating the government warnings to see if they reflect a reasonable response to that risk.

Background

It’s been pretty clear for a while that fish is an important part of a healthy diet, and there seems to be little dispute in scientific circles on this fact. It’s high in protein, low in saturated fat, and an excellent source of the long-chain omega-3 fatty acids (DHA and EPA) associated with heart health, brain and eye development. It’s also a good source of Vitamin D – 100g of salmon contains more than the daily recommendation for those 2-50 years old, and the same amount of tuna contains about 40%. Vitamin D has received a lot of attention lately for everything from cancer reduction to heart health to combating depression (claims that are now being tested in the current US VITAL study). No wonder the Canada Food Guide recommends 2 x 75g servings per week.


Many people, myself included, have been steadily increasing the proportion of fish in our diets, an easy feat given the plethora of inexpensive canned and frozen options in the grocery aisle. I probably cook less fresh fish myself because of cost and storage issues (read: I’m cheap and hate buying things that go bad quickly), but fresh fish is my “go to” order when eating out, and I do like my sushi.

It’s also been pretty clear for a while that there’s a downside to fish in the form of mercury consumption. Even the casual newsreader will understand that many fish contain levels that are too high, and that scientists and government are recommending we moderate our intake. We may have heard bad things about tuna, and though we probably can’t remember their names, we know we’ve seen at least a couple of people on the news say they ate a lot and got sick. And wasn’t there something about that guy from Entourage?

So despite the health benefits, there appears to be good reason to second-guess our fish consumption. Yet we're much less concerned about this risk than we are of mercury in vaccines, and the evidence suggests that we have not lowered our consumption in response -- a point I'll come back to shortly.

What is mercury poisoning and how do I get it?

Mercury poisoning is overexposure to the heavy metal mercury, which targets the central and peripheral nervous systems. Early symptoms include skin tingling, malaise and blurred vision, with continued / higher exposure leading to visual constrictions, deafness, speech disorder, loss of muscle control – and eventually coma and death. There’s some limited research to suggest that even lower-level chronic exposure is associated with immune system and cardiovascular problems, though this isn't yet conclusive. And mercury is known to pass the placenta, making it particularly harmful to developing fetuses in even lower doses than it affects adults, resulting in compromised fine motor function, attention, verbal learning, and memory. I could go into more detail, but let’s just agree it’s really bad and should be stridently avoided.

Mercury enters our environment from natural & man-made processes that release it from the earth, such as erosion, volcanic activity, forest fires, and (most significantly) the burning of fossil fuels. Outside of certain occupational settings, humans get exposed to mercury almost entirely through diet. Concentrations in the air – as well as exposure from dental fillings, thimerosal in vaccines, and broken thermometers or fluorescent light bubs – are all very low. Which is to say, we don’t inhale, inject or touch it so much as we eat it.

Because mercury is contained in the soil, there are traces in all foods, but uptake by plants is low and not generally considered to be a health issue. Health Canada runs periodic diet studies, as do many other nations, and they’ve consistently shown the major source of mercury to be the consumption of fish, which absorb it from the water as well as their own food sources. All fish contain traces, but certain fish have enough to be a health concern – primarily the bigger, older fish. This makes sense when you think about it: they’re at the top of the food chain, so their diet includes the highest concentration of mercury in the system (what’s called “biomagnification”), and they’ve been building it up in their bodies for longer (what’s called “bioaccumulation”).

How has the public evaluated the risk?

As a result of these findings, most governments have put out recommendations on which fish are safe to eat, which should be eaten in moderation, and what quantities are within safe limits. These recommendations have been widely reported by the mainstream media, yet mercury in fish remains a modest concern for most of us. According to a 2006 study by market researchers NPD Group, “67 percent of people are aware and concerned about mercury in fish/seafood, yet of those who do eat fish, 28 percent plan to eat more of it in the next month.” The research suggested that Americans (this was a US study) are receiving conflicting information and making trade-off decisions, often choosing to ignore the mercury risks in favour of the health benefits. So while there's clearly some cognitive dissonance, there's no widespread panic of the sort that we saw with the H1N1 vaccine.

Why should this be? People clearly know that mercury is bad, so why does the very small amount in the flu shot cause significant fear despite safety assurances and the obvious public health benefits of inoculation, while levels in fish significant enough to prompt government advisories are given short shrift?

The answer comes to us via the last 30+ years of research in evolutionary psychology, which has uncovered a series of heuristics (rules of thumb) our brain uses to make risk assessments. These heuristics were extremely useful to humans for several hundred thousand years, such that they've become hard-wired by evolution and form a fundamental part of our interaction with the world around us. Unfortunately that world, and the risks in it, are dramatically different today, and as a result our higher faculties are often held hostage to these artifacts of evolution. In fact, our response to mercury risk in fish vs. vaccines is a pretty good illustration of how two of the most important heuristics can steer us wrong.

The first is the availability heuristic, which says that if we can recall a recent example of something happening, its likelihood is higher, and if we can’t, it’s lower. With vaccines, the examples are easy to come by – thanks to Jenny McCarthy, Oprah, and many, many unquestioning media reports, we have countless examples of bad things happening when people get vaccinated (baseless though they may be).

By contrast, fish mercury lacks a celebrity spokesperson, and the media coverage tends to come out as new research is released – not when something terrible happens to someone. In fact, there’s a pretty high degree of balanced, credible information making its way to the top of the heap. The top 10 hits on a Google search for “mercury in fish” starts with two articles on the US Food & Drug Administration website, a handy wallet card from the National Resource Defense Council based on FDA data, and some recent research from the US Geological Survey. The Wikipedia article that followed was reasonably balanced and relied heavily on FDA data, and Health Canada came after that. The two news stories that made the cut were from the Economist and MSNBC, both lightweight summaries of recent findings. The American Heart Association and New South Wales Food Authority were also represented. The reader of all of these is left with a reasonably accurate picture of the research, and critically, no graphic case studies of people who have been adversely affected. It’s dry stuff without a human element, and doesn’t trigger our brain to overstate the risk.

The second heuristic at play here is the affect heuristic, which says that we make intuitive good-bad assessments of things, and then attribute an inverse correlation between that value and the risk. So if we see fish as inherently good, we’ll also see it as inherently low risk, and vice-versa. Those initial assessments are also very hard to change – there needs to be a well publicized, visceral example to serve as a cautionary tale for us to change our assessment. This is what’s happened with vaccines in the last several years – they’ve gone from Good to Bad in many people’s minds thanks to the extensive anecdotal "record" presented by Jenny & co., and so they’re seen by those people as riskier.

Fish mercury hasn’t had that visceral example – the closest we’ve got is the recent tale of Jeremy Piven of Entourage fame, who’s virtually unknown to the 70% of US households without HBO. And Piven’s tale probably wouldn’t be enough to make us worry regardless, because all the reports said he eats sushi nonstop and was taking a whack of (possibly mercury-containing) Chinese herbs…not typical behaviours for most of us. So in the absence of some big example to make us change our minds, our brains’ original assessment of fish stands – it’s good, just like mom, folklore, and (later) science told us, and good things are lower risk.

Of course, whether we intuitively think something is good or bad is not actually correlated to its risk. Which is why, if the public health authorities have it right, then our brains are steering us wrong about mercury on both counts. Others on this site have diligently addressed, and validated, the public health assessment of mercury risk in vaccines. On Thursday, we'll look at the actual mercury levels in fish and compare them to the government recommendations to see if our brains have indeed duped us twice.

***
Erik Davis thinks we really are living in the best of all possible worlds, and is astounded at how many people don't see it. Accordingly, he's agreed to be an occasional guest contributor on Skeptic North on the topic of risk perception. A long-time opponent of all things Web 2.0, he was finally induced to blog by PharmacistScott, who threatened to withhold his OxyContin.

19 comments:

PharmacistScott said...

Great post. Certainly the availability heuristic is something that all health professionals experience. I've seen some horrible reactions to prescription drugs that, even decades later, are still tightly linked to my knowledge of that drug. It's problematic as it can easily cloud an objective evaluation of the risk (vs. benefit) of any treatment strategy.

I wonder if the same heuristic also seems to be at play health professionals who sell implausible alt-med treatments. Homeopathy, when used for self-limiting conditions, will inevitably be associated with some positive outcomes. Glowing endorsements from consumers might nudge health professionals towards an acceptance of possible efficacy despite any evidence beyond these anecdotes.

dchapeskie said...

A good article, I like your focus on how humans make decisions. As such I realise that your comparison of mercury in fish to mercury in vaccines is perhaps somewhat secondary, but I think that any such comparison should mention that one is methylmercury and the other is ethylmercury. In particular when discussing bioaccumulation; my understanding is that ethylmercury is cleared from the body much quicker than methylmercury so any direct comparison of mercury contents would seem to be like comparing apples to oranges.

I'm a layman in such matters so any clarification or corrections (of my statements, not yours) would be appreciated.

Kimberly Hebert said...

Great article, I look forward to part 2.

Maybe we just have to make vaccines more delicious, like tuna.

SicPreFix said...

Really good essay. Thank you for that. Also looking forward to part 2.

I'd love to see a risk assessment essay from you discussing "all things web 2.0", an entity that I too oppose.

testing123 said...

@dchapeskie - Thanks for the clarification, and yes your understanding matches mine. I think from a risk perception standpoint though, it really doesn't matter much -- all people hear is mercury and really don't delve deeper. Unfortunately, repeated studies have shown that we make rational evaluations far less than we think we do, and most of the time we operate at the instinctive level where the heuristics are most effective.

That's because we actually have two "brains" -- one reasoning and one instinctual -- that map not just to modes of thought but to human evolution. The instinctual brain, centred around the amygdala, is sometimes called the "lizard brain" because it pre-dates homo-sapien, i.e. we inherited it. The rational brain was grafted on much more recently. When we're our most rational, there's a dialogue between these two brains -- lizard brain feeds impulse data to the rational brain, which considers the evidence and makes a decision. But the problem here is two-fold.

First, even when that healthy dialogue goes on, the "data" from the lizard brain is weighted far more greatly than that from more objective sources, and rational brain is largely unaware of just how much weight it's giving lizard brain. So even our rational processes are tainted.

But even more importantly, rational brain steps in surprisingly seldomly. In his excellent book Risk, Dan Gardner describes the rational brain as being like a bright but lazy teenager, content to let lizard brain drive the bus while he listens to his iPod. The vast majority of our decisions are not made by the rational brain, but by the instinctive brain, which is what makes the heuristics so powerful.

Re: Ethyl & Methyl, the Mercury twins.

I would go so far to say that the fact that ethyl-mercury clears out of our system so much more efficently actually serves to magnify the point.
Not only are the amounts taken in by vaccinations and fish consumption vastly different, but when it comes down to it we aren't, for practical purposes, even talking about the same substance.
It underlines the point - we are intellectually lazy and are actually 'blowing it' on two fronts in this example because heuristics are just so darned easy, comfortable and seemingly intuitive.

ErikD said...

First - apologies for the handle mix-up...testing123 was me, the author.

@PharmacistScott - it's very hard, even for trained psychologists, to untangle exactly which heuristic is at play in any specific decision, and it doesn't help that they tend to overlap and compound on each other. That said, the availability heuristic is primarily about how we assess likelihood rather than efficacy, so doesn't seem to me (admittedly not a trained psychologist) to be the most obvious candidate in your homeopathy case. It sounds more like confirmation bias, which is the tendency for all of us to filter incoming information for data points that confirm what we already believe, and to discard data points that disconfirm our beliefs. While intellectually dishonest, it is very, very common, and not at all limited to purveyors of woo -- we all do it on a variety of topics (consider your position in your last political discussion, and this will be pretty obvious). We're just hard-wired to convince ourselves we're right, which is of course why blinding is so important in any scientific study.

There could be more at play too -- group dynamics will often reinforce confirmation bias, because when others share our beliefs, we become even more convinced we're right. It creates the sort of amplifying feedback loop that can lead to group polarization, the tendency to become more extreme when in peer groups. So a class at CCNM, for example, could act as a crucible that hardens the existing belief in homeopathy,

KarinK said...

The Anti-vaxxers I have talked to, all insist that INJECTING a small amount of mercury is much worse than INGESTING a larger amount.

mike said...

I’d also like to see someone address the issue of injecting vs ingesting. You can’t assume that 25ug of mercury injected is the same as 25 ug consumed via fish. Or can you? Nobody seems to address that issue.

I’d also like to see someone address the issue of how mercury may interact with other chemicals in vaccines. There are certain toxic substances that become way more toxic when mixed with other chemicals. I don’t believe there is any research being done which studies the compounding effects of the various chemicals within our vaccines.

I’d also like to see someone address the issue of methylation and vaccines. Several comments above state that ethyl-mercury clears out of our system efficiently. But does that apply to everyone? Is it possible that there are people who don’t clear out ethyl-mercury efficiently? And if your body was not able to clear out ethyl-mercury efficiently, could injecting ethyl-mercury into your system lead to problems? This leads to the issue of vaccinations and newborns. If you go for an H1N1 shot and you have a cold, you’ll be told to go home because your immune system is ‘busy’ and shouldn’t be taking on a vaccine. But when it comes to newborns, we know their immune systems are underdeveloped, and we do nothing to test their immune systems before injecting them with multiple vaccines.

ErikD said...

@mike: Thanks for the questions. I’m not going to answer them directly because the topic of this article isn’t the safety of vaccines, it’s how humans assess risk, but I will point you to a couple of sites as a starting point for your research:

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=9
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ewh-semt/pubs/contaminants/mercur/q28-q34-eng.php#q-30

I do though want to address the type of questions you’re asking, because I think they’re indicative of the way humans natively look at such topics, and thus instructive on this topic. The thing that jumped out at me is the idea that (a) we should know the answers to all of these questions, and (b) if we don’t, it’s reasonable to assume a certain level of risk. This is a form of the precautionary principle, i.e. better safe than sorry.

The problem with the precautionary principle is twofold. The first is that in most cases, you’re not actually more safe, you’re just trading one basket of risks for another…and often the basket you receive is worse than the one you gave away (which, after all, was just a potential risk). Vaccines are a perfect example of this – even if the worst fears of Jenny McCarthy were confirmed (and repeated studies have said otherwise), I'd take the incumbent increase in autism over polio, rubella, Hib, influenza, measles, mumps, diphtheria, and pertussis any day.

But the second problem is to my mind more insidious, which is that applying the precautionary principle teaches us to expect a seal of safety for everything around us, which is just not feasible.

To see what I mean, consider an item that’s in nearly every Canadian home, and is in regular contact with our food. Children often put this item in their mouths, to the terror of their parents – most children aren’t even allowed to touch one. In Toronto alone, it caused 73 hospitalizations in the first 4 months of 2008…and many of those hospitalized said it struck them without warning. Yet despite this, it continues to be widely sold.

The item, of course, is common cutlery, and the stats on knife injuries can be found here: http://armsandthelaw.com/archives/2008/06/knife_crime_in.php. But even if we ignore the stabbings, consider that stainless steel cutlery has (as near as I can tell) never been tested for safety, and we put it in our mouths every day. Which is true for the vast majority of substances we interact with on a daily basis.

There simply aren’t enough resources to test everything in advance; to think we can or should is not in the least bit helpful, and does not make us measurably safer. We test things when there's a reason to test them, usually in response to already-known risks or a perceived pattern of illness or injury. Sometimes we find a smoking gun and sometimes we don’t, but in the meantime, we can’t allow ourselves to stand still waiting for better data…it’s just paralysis by analysis.

Of put another way, as those who know me have heard me say repeatedly: we live in the safest time in human history, enjoying the longest lifespans and the lowest morbidity ever. Yes there are risks, but they’re pretty damn slim, and we all just need to man up and get on with living.

Kimberly Hebert said...

One animal study that I found suggested that both ingestion and injection of methyl mercury was worse than ethyl mercury injection.

There is about 50 ug of methyl mercury in a 6 ounces of tuna and it has a half life of about 44 days in an infant. There is 1 ug or less of ethyl mercury in a dose containing Thiomersal/Thimerosal preservative and it has a half life of less than a week in an infant.

That's why methyl can build up vs ethyl. In adults these half life values are about twice as large, respectively.

So comparing an equal amount of ingested vs. injected mercury does not reflect likely exposure - especially as there are many sources of mercury exposure outside of vaccines. A very small amount of easily-processed mercury is injected with a vaccine, whereas a much larger amount of harder-to-process mercury is ingested (or otherwise encountered) in the environment.

What "compounding effects" are you referring to that wouldn't show up in clinical trials? I'm not sure how to answer your question without some more detailed information.

Allergic reactions to mercury are rare and present as typical allergic reactions.

A neonate's immune system is quite robust, it's just naive. Vaccines help safely expose them to protective antibodies and their system can handle it.

You can get vaccinated if you have a mild cold, but you might infect other people.

Kimberly Hebert said...

To clarify my last sentence: you might infect other people with the illness you already have as you wait in line or a waiting room for your injected. I realize my wording might have made it sound like the vaccine process itself would make you infect other people - that's not the case.

mike said...

@ErikD

Thanks for responding to my post. I checked out the links you mention, but didn’t necessarily find anything that would address my questions. I don’t really get the whole cutlery analogy. If I found out that our government was granting legal immunity to cutlery makers for anything that may go wrong with properly used cutlery, or if there was enough anecdotal evidence that properly used cutlery could be harmful, I probably would reconsider putting it in my mouth every day. I don’t believe anyone is trying to claim that knives in the hands of children are ‘safe’.

I agree with you though, that there is a risk associated with everything, and people often assess risks rather subjectively based on things they may have heard or experienced rather than an objective examination of the readily available data. That’s just human nature. What I would hope for though, is that people are given the pros and cons so they can weigh the risks themselves of any particular course of action they choose to take. You may feel that autism is a better option than measles or mumps, but if you had to choose between a 1 in 150 chance of a child with autism vs a 1 in 150,000 chance of pertussis (I don’t know what the actual odds would be. I’m just using this as an example), would it really be such an easy choice?

What bothers me about the H1N1 debate is not that I’m looking for a seal of safety around the shot. But what our mainstream media was presenting to the public was that the shot was perfectly safe. The vaccine makers themselves admit there’s a 1 in 100,000 chance of a serious adverse reaction to the shot, be it anaphylactic shock or neurological disorder, etc. The vaccine makers also admit that there is limited testing of the vaccine in pregnant women and children. And I believe that our government has granted our vaccine maker legal immunity from any lawsuits stemming from anything vaccine-related. (Correct me if I’m wrong. And I believe the US has done the same). To me, these are all legitimate reasons for concern. What I would have liked to see offered to the public is a proper explanation of the risks of getting vs not getting the shot, and then the public could at least make a somewhat informed decision.

As for paralysis by analysis, I also disagree about not allowing ourselves to stand still. It took a long time for science to establish a link between smoking and lung cancer. It took an even longer time to establish a link between second hand smoke and lung cancer. Your advice to parents in the mean time would have been to ‘man up’ and keep smoking in their cars with their children in the back and the windows rolled up because the notion at that point that these people were harming their children was baseless.

I don’t claim to have all the answers, but I’m very skeptical of anyone who does. The only 1 thing that’s a guarantee from the whole H1N1 story is that GlaxoKlineSmith will make a bundle of money, selling 50 million doses to a country of 36 million people. I have yet to see an explanation that satisfies me as to why the rates of developmental delays, asthma, allergies, autism, in children are rising so alarmingly. I have yet to see an explanation that satisfies me as to how soldiers can be developing gulf war syndrome without ever being deployed. Vaccines may or may not be part of the problem (and I don’t believe even the most aggressive ‘anti-vaxxer’ would claim that vaccines alone are responsible). A link has yet to be established, but that doesn’t mean that a link will never be established. I don’t have blind faith in science. Science is only the science of today. 100 years from now, what science tells us is safe or unsafe will not be a perfect match with what we believe today. Does it mean we should stand still waiting? Probably not. But I think a healthy dose of skepticism even towards things that have the ‘science-based’ label attached to them is still a good thing.

mike said...

@Kim.

Thanks for the ‘pediatrics’ link on infant immune systems. I had not seen that before.

Regarding the ‘1 ug of ethyl mercury per dose’, I’m not sure where you’re getting that information from. That would imply a ‘trace’ amount, meaning there is no preservative being used. The H1N1 vaccine is not preservative free.

I still don’t see any information that would clarify what 25ug injected (of anything) vs 25ug ingested would result in from an ‘exposure’ perspective.

Regarding ‘compounding effects’, I believe studies are done to show what a particular amount of mercury exposure would result in. And studies are done to show what a particular amount of aluminum exposure would result in. And arsenic, and lead, and tim, etc. (I’m not claiming these are all present in vaccines). But I don’t believe studies are done to show what mixing these items together would result in. When it comes to vaccine testing, my understanding is that patients are only examined for 7 days after their shot to determine adverse effects. Any longer-term effects are deemed to be ‘coincidental’.

Regarding why you would not be allowed to get vaccinated with a moderate or severe illness, it’s not because you might infect other people in line with your illness. Any flu shot I've been given has a consent form where I must state that I am not currently sick. And this was given at work. No line up. No waiting room. If anyone can point to the real reason behind this restriction, that would be great.

ErikD said...

@mike - You seem to be of two minds on the subject of vaccines, and engaged in an honest exploration of the risks and benefits, and I certainly appreciate that. I'm sorry I'm not qualified to answer all of your questions on the topic, though I do suspect the reason you're not able to find some of these answers is that there may not be sufficient studies to answer them.

The concern I have is that you seem to want to jump from "I don't have all the answers I want, perhaps because they're currently unanswerable" to "there's not enough evidence to prove to my satisfaction that a vaccine is safe" to "the vaccine is unsafe". Here's why I take issue with that:

1) The scientific method will never, ever be able to declare a vaccine, or anything else, safe. The best it can do, by definition, is say that there's no reason to think it unsafe, because science is based on a posteriori investigation. That was the fundamental contribution of the Age of Reason, and what separates it from all prior modes of inquiry. And its implication is that we need to abandon our illusions of absolute truths and certainties, and accept probability as the method by which we attain (and define) knowledge. This is very hard for the human mind, which is why it took us 250,000 years to get there, but it is the "state of the art" in critical thought, and leads us to better conclusions more of the time.

2) Mass vaccination as a public health measure has been around for about a century. It has been the subject of massive amounts of research by government, educational institutions, NGO's, and industry. On top of that research, my "back of the napkin" calculations show that we've given out several billion shots worldwide, so we've got some real world experience with this stuff. All of which gives researchers a pretty good understanding of the risk space they're working in, meaning we understand most things that can go wrong already. Yes there are differences among vaccines, and yes we continue to test, research, and evaluate new evidence, and yes we may well uncover a new risk or side-effect at some point in the future. But all of that research and experience means that we've caught many of the most obvious and most dangerous problems already. So while we don't, and won't ever, have perfect knowledge, to suggest that there has not been sufficient research to make a reasonable risk evaluation is simply not correct.

3) To your question about smoking, yes I do actually think there was a time when it was a perfectly reasonable decision to smoke given the state of evidence. And yes, cigarettes were just as dangerous then, and what we didn't know hurt us. And yes, if someone followed their as-yet-unsupported hunch that cigarettes were dangerous and quit, they'd have been better off. But recognize that they got lucky, and remember that even a broken clock is right twice a day. More to the point, there's one critical difference here: there were never any known benefits to smoking, so giving it up against the then-current state of evidence didn't expose you or anyone else to new risks. That's not the case with vaccines that eradicate known killers and have played a very large role in the monumental drop in infant mortality rates over the last century - from over 10% to less than a half a percent. Against this backdrop, there needs to be much, much, much more than a hunch or a series of unanswered questions to validate an anti-vax stance.

Rob said...

Mike, it seems like you're asking the folks here to do your homework for you. The questions you're asking presuppose substantial knowledge in toxicology, immunology, renal physiology, population-based epidemiology, and bioinorganic chemistry.

Instead of being the "I'm just asking questions" guy, if you really are genuinely interested in these issues, go do some background reading in the above topics. Once you've internalized that knowledge and are conversant in all these scientific fields, you'll start to see that some of the questions you're asking are actually quite muddled and thus impossible to answer.

Note, this is not the same as bad faith. I hope you're asking your questions in good faith, but they are simple-appearing questions which actually betray substantial confusion over the scientific concepts in question.

mike said...

@Erik

Thanks for your response. Just to clarify, I am not trying to imply or conclude that the H1N1 vaccine is unsafe. And any issues I have with vaccines are not related to any 1 particular shot. (Although a HepB shot for a non ‘at-risk’ newborn seems a little over the top to me). And this is something that comes up over and over in this vaccine discussion. It seems anyone who doesn’t share your (i.e. the ‘skeptic’) viewpoint on vaccines is labeled an ‘anti-vaxxer’ and assumed to be against vaccines in general. I don’t know anyone who thinks vaccines in general are a bad thing or who thinks we should stop vaccinating our children against preventable diseases. But I do know a lot of people who think our current child vaccination schedule needs some tweaking and who think that we need to get a better understanding of what the longer term effects of such an aggressive vaccination schedule are. There may have been massive amounts of research into vaccine safety, but I don’t believe there have been massive amounts of research put into longer term effects.

Today’s science is ‘state of the art’ as you imply. So was the science of 100 years ago. And so will be the science of 100 years from now. I strongly believe that 50 years from now, the method in which vaccines are scheduled and administered to children will have undergone a significant overhaul because we’ll have realized that the current way we’re administering vaccines is triggering something in our immune systems that we don’t yet fully understand. Anyone who wants to ridicule me for that because I don’t have a ‘science-based’ label to attach to that statement can go ahead in the same way that the anti-smokers of 50 years ago were ridiculed. But don’t ridicule me for assuming that I want to let children start dying of polio.

mike said...

@Rob

I wish I did have the time to become an expert on all these subjects. All the questions I have relate to the issue of whether our current vaccine schedule could be causing long term adverse health effects that could be avoided, and whether it is reasonable to assume that every child’s body will handle all these vaccines effectively. Maybe these questions are impossible to answer. Like I said before, I don’t have all the answers, but I’m skeptical of anyone who does.

ErikD said...

@Mike: The crux of our difference is here:

------
"But I do know a lot of people who think our current child vaccination schedule needs some tweaking and who think that we need to get a better understanding of what the longer term effects of such an aggressive vaccination schedule are...

...I strongly believe that 50 years from now, the method in which vaccines are scheduled and administered to children will have undergone a significant overhaul because we’ll have realized that the current way we’re administering vaccines is triggering something in our immune systems that we don’t yet fully understand."
------

This argument says two things:

(a) if you have a "strong belief" that something is true, that's sufficient for decision making, and

(b) that lack of sufficient data, even to a completely subjective standard of sufficiency, is enough to validate such a "strong belief"

I think I've already outlined how (b) is actually the opposite approach that science takes. We believe X because there's positive evidence to support such a belief -- not because there isn't. It's counter-intuitive and violates the way we're wired to think. Most of the great philosophers we can name - Socrates, Plato, Aquinas -- said the opposite. But it's a major advance in human thought that unequivocally leads to better decisions more of the time.

That said, (a) to me is equally pernicious, because of the amazing degree of ego it implies. Based on your posts, it's clear you're not a doctor, researcher, epidemiologist, or other individual that has the sort of training and experience to evaluate the evidence on this topic. That's OK -- I'm not either, which is why I generally trust the experts who get paid to figure this stuff out. It's not a blind trust of course, but it does recognize the basic limits of my capacity to operate in a very complex field without proper training, and of my ability to form strong beliefs that are in any way useful for interacting with the world.

You know, skeptics often get accused of arrogance for appearing to have all the answers, yet skepticism enshrines a respect for evidence and process that takes the individual out of the equation. The real arrogance is in thinking you know more than experts, for no reason other than you think you're right. It doesn't make you a bad person (and in fact puts you in the majority), but it does considerably decrease the likelihood that your position is correct.

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