Seem unlikely? Well, the Ontario government is poised to give another type of magician -- the naturopath -- prescribing rights, despite the reams of evidence discrediting their approach to patient health. It's a move that legitimizes a well-meaning but baseless profession, and puts patients at significant risk.
Surely I must be exaggerating, right? After all, naturopaths practice "natural healing", and nature is good, isn't it? Unfortunately for patients, no evidence exists to suggest that naturopaths are capable primary care providers. Naturopathy is a fundamentally flawed idea - and a government blessing only entrenches and magnifies the health risks to Canadians.
Naturopathy's key premise is bogus: The key underlying premise of naturopathy is called vitalism: the idea that humans are possessed with a magical quality that transcends the laws of physics. Sometimes called vis medicatrix naturae (the healing power of nature), vitalism is essentially magical thinking: the belief that some type of "energy field" or "life force" can be harnessed and manipulated by the naturopath. Vitalism was rejected by the medical profession decades ago, about the time it was discovered that bloodletting to balance the body's "humors" was a bad idea. Substantial developments in medical science over the past hundred years have put the idea of vitalism in the dustbin of medical ideas. Naturopathic principles are, at their core, based around this profoundly unscientific and incorrect idea of health.
Naturopathy lacks a credible evidence base: With vitalism at its core, naturopaths accept and use just about every implausible or scientifically discarded therapy that exists. Without any minimum standard upon which to evaluate (and reject) treatments, anything can be "naturopathic". Homeopathy is an elaborate placebo system without any persuasive evidence of efficacy, yet naturopaths have it as a central component of their curriculum. Based on the implausible premise of "like cures like" and "dilution makes it stronger" advocates believe that the light reflecting off Saturn, raccoon fur, or even ultra-dilute table salt can be a homeopathic remedy. Other popular naturopathic treatments include reiki (magical energy healing), acupuncture (another placebo therapy, different invisible energy fields), even hydrotherapy (flushing the colon with water). Given the questionable curriculum, it is unclear how naturopathy can be credibly compared to any science-based health profession. Here's a description of Asian Medicine I, from the Canadian College of Naturopathic Medicine's curriculum:
"Students focus on the fundamentals of Traditional Chinese Medicine including basic history, philosophy, and development. They are introduced to fundamental theories including Yin/Yang, five elements and Zang-Fu. Therapeutic and diagnostic theories introduced include 8 principles, 6 Pathogenic Factors, Qi, Blood, Body Fluids and 7 emotions. There is discussion on acupuncture channels, pulse and tongue diagnosis as well as other therapies applicable for use in Traditional Chinese Medicine."Not surprisingly, Canada's only naturopathy school is not affiliated with any university, medical school or publicly-funded hospital. Unlike health professionals, naturopaths do not do undergraduate and postgraduate training in teaching hospitals.
Faulty Science, Bad Health Care: A combination of a flawed premise and a credulous approach to evidence leads naturopaths to advocate all types of bizarre treatments for real medical conditions: cleansing diets for eczema, ginseng to treat cancer, and even homeopathy for diabetes. Naturopaths antagonize established public health goals, with their frequent opposition to vaccinations. Recent articles by naturopaths, advocating probiotics, herbal extracts or even homeopathy, instead of the H1N1 vaccine, underscore this concern. Vitamin supplementation for virtually every medical condition is common. If a treatment has been rejected as unscientific, or proven to be ineffective, there seems to be naturopath that recommends it.
Patient Risk: If naturopaths want to prescribe placebo treatments like homeopathy, and wave their arms over someone to manipulate their invisible energy fields, the biggest risk to consumers is likely limited to their wallets. But when patients avoid legitimate, evidence-based care from health professionals, or receive prescriptions based on pseudoscientific ideas about a disease, there is a real risk of harm. Prescription drugs have real effects and real side effects. There's no evidence that naturopaths have an evidence base equivalent to health professionals like physician and pharmacists. A review of the initial list of drugs that Ontario naturopaths want to prescribe is telling. Bioidentical hormones are on the list, with celebrity advocates like Oprah and Suzanne Somers, but unequivocal criticism from medical experts. Animal "glandular extracts" follow (dried thymus, spleen, and liver, anyone?), used to treat "adrenal fatigue", a condition that seems to exist only in patients that see naturopaths. Antibiotics, antifungals, and antivirals are on the list, despite any evidence that naturopaths can accurately diagnose and treat conditions that require these therapies.
Other jurisdictions have experimented with giving naturopaths prescribing rights. Despite the claims made about the safety of naturopathy, deaths and serious injuries have been documented as a consequence of prescribing privileges. Canadian heath professionals have raised pointed and specific concerns about naturopathy. A coalition of seven Canadian allergy organizations wrote to the British Columbia Minister of Health, George Abbott, protesting the British Columbia plan to allow naturopaths to perform allergy testing and treatment. See their letter here. (PDF) They point out that naturopaths do not define allergies in evidence-based ways, nor do they use scientifically-validated methods of testing allergies. They emphasize that naturopaths do not support immunizations.
Naturopath prescribing is also raising questions about the liability of of other health professionals who interact with their clients. A key role of the pharmacist is to double-check the safety and appropriateness of a prescribed drug. When required, the pharmacist resolves drug related problems with the prescriber. This is only possible because pharmacists, physicians, and nurse practitioners work from a common, science-based understanding of drugs and disease. In contrast, naturopaths may not share this science-based approach to illness, and may rely on references that are unknown to, inconsistent with, or directly contradict the medically accepted standard of care. If naturopaths prescribe a drug based on a naturopathic belief system, and a pharmacist determines that the prescription is not appropriate from a scientific and evidence-based perspective, what will the pharmacist's responsibility be? Will pharmacists be held liable for prescriptions written by naturopaths who do not share a science-based view of illness?
Wasted Health Expenses: Despite what naturopaths purport, there is no persuasive evidence that they're capable of delivering the screening, prevention and treatment required of legitimate primary care providers. Given the lack of insight that naturopaths display into the basis and treatment of disease, and judging by their embrace of profoundly unscientific treatments, there is little reason to expect patients will receive prescription drugs based on scientific principles. In light of this, why are governments allowing naturopaths to prescribe? Ontario is now poised to become the second province to extend prescribing privileges to naturopaths.
When the Health Professions Regulatory Advisory Council (HPRAC) recommended that the Ontario government legislate a significant expansion of practice for naturopaths, health professionals were understandably concerned, and pressed for changes. In what appeared to be a decision in favour of evidence-based health care, the initial version of Bill 179 expressly omitted any expansion of scope for naturopathy.
It was clear the naturopaths were not going to let this pass without challenge, with British Columbia recently giving naturopaths prescribing rights. In June, Ontario naturopaths launched a write-in campaign to government that described naturopaths as primary care providers, comparable to family physicians, and worthy of the right to prescribe.
The Bill passed second reading and was referred to the Standing Committee on Social Policy. Several naturopath organizations were on the agenda, and argued for "unambiguous authority for prescribing, compounding, dispensing or selling a drug as designated in the regulations" - essentially a clause that will allow naturopaths gain access to prescription drugs, developing a list out of the public eye. The standing committee accepted this request (the revisions may be viewed here [PDF]), and put naturopath prescribing into Bill 179. Third reading is expected sometime this fall. If it passes, the right for naturopaths to prescribe drugs will become entrenched in Ontario law.
Conclusion
This year, the Ontario Government projects it will run $24.7 billion budget deficit. Significant changes are expected throughout the health system. In light of this, why is it proceeding with changes that will reduce quality, increase risk, and waste health resources? Naturopath prescribing lacks a sound evidence base, addresses no clear medical need, and has the potential to increase patient harm and health care costs.
Full disclosure: The author is an Ontario pharmacist
Updated (12/02/09): Bill 179 has now passed - edited for time sensitive content



72 comments:
Fantastic piece!
Too late for BC but maybe not for Ontario.
Not sure what a BC voice can do in terms of sending an email, but I did.
I pointed out that laws in Ontario only serve to give faux-credence to our laws and make them harder to repeal.
Fabulous post, Scott! Thanks for pointing out what we can do.
Believe it or not, they've been precribing for years here in Arizona.
http://www.azpharmacy.gov/pdfs/RXauthority.pdf
Thanks for bringing this to my attention, I just sent my e-mail. Although I should mention that you can't e-mail Premier McGuinty directly. My e-mail to him bounced, saying his mailbox is full. You have to use the web form at http://www.premier.gov.on.ca/feedback/
Current email for Premium McGuinty from gov.on.ca is:
dmcguinty.mpp.co@liberal.ola.org
Seemed to work for me.
Corrected the email to autofill as Erik suggested. Thanks for pointing this out.
And here is their flaccid response...
Thank you for your email sharing your views on Bill 179, RX privileges for Naturopaths. Ontario's New Democrats support prescribing authority for Naturopathic Doctors (NDs). There has unfortunately been misinformation circulating regarding this new prescribing authority as well as the training, practice, and beliefs of the regulated health profession of Naturopathy.
New Democrats have supported prescribing authority for Naturopaths as it is necessary to maintain NDs current access to natural or botanical substances used in the course of their practice. New Democrats support
an evidence-based, regulatory system that places the safety of Ontarians first. Although Naturopaths have been granted the ability to prescribe, the substances that will be available to them will go through a lengthy
regulatory process and grant access only to substances that NDs have the appropriate training to prescribe.
Granting Naturopaths prescribing rights is a necessary measure for the Ontarians who choose to visit these health care providers. While New
Democrats respect the choice and diversity of opinions that Ontarians have regarding the practice of Naturopathy, we are confident that this expanded right is in the best interest of Ontarians who choose to visit a Naturopathic Doctor.
Thank you again for taking the time to write me.
Sincerely,
Ezia Cervoni,
Leader's Correspondence Officer
On behalf of Andrea Horwath, MPP
Leader, Ontario's NDP
Dear NDP,
I wish I also had the power to turn off science when it wasn't convenient.
Whenever people use the phrase "It's natural" to describe some substance they believe is legitimately healthful, I always think, "So is cocaine".
On the other hand, placebos are proven effective in a lot of cases, so I don't want to be too damning of their dream science.
Let the children have their tooth fairies. (Until it becomes dangerous...)
This post is filled with lies, exaggerations, and deliberate or ignorant misinterpretation of the principles and practice of naturopathic medicine. Vitalism is an outdated and ancient theory. When naturoapths talk about vital force it is a figurative representation of the biological processes that animate all living things. When a naturopath uses therapies to manipulate the vital force, it is a phrase that describes the use of specific medicines that allow a person's body to heal better by improving its own capacity to heal. Sometimes we understand the underlying physiological actions well, like the cortisol potentiating action of licorice root, and sometime we recognize the clinical effects, like its antitussive effect. But you make it seem like naturopaths believe they can directly manipulate some energy force, which is untrue. The same thing holds for your critique of Traditional Asian Medicine theory. It is a system of medicine based on observation of the human condition in health and disease. The language it uses is figurative, again, in the place of biological and physiological processes that were not yet understood on that level. Yin and Yang are observations of the dichotomy between opposing physical symptoms, like a patient excreting a large volume of urine or scanty amounts, as a simple example. It does not explain why, outside of the framework of TCM. But then, treatments are based on these observations: the what, not the why. It is valid within the system of TCM because therapies (dietetic, herbal and acupuncture) were based on years of careful observation.
What else have you fabricated, twisted and lied about? Well, you are ignorant to the fact the CCNM is Canada's only naturopathic institution. There is also Boucher Institute in Vancouver. CCNM is affiliated through research partnership with a number of hospitals and goverment agencies (see the website for the details). The 4-Year Full-Time postgraduate program is heavily weighted with basic medical science courses alongside naturopathic specific streams. Pharmacology and Research Principles are prominent courses. There is an evidence-based stress to all of the naturopathic modality course material. But natural medicines have long, long history of use before the RCT. The evidence of medical effectiveness was meticulously recorded observation by medical practitioners. To say this kind of information is invalid now because RCT's exist is to be willful obstinacy. The use pharmaceuticals (that have "real side effects") are no different in some respects; off-label prescibing is based on observation, not RCT results. And RCTs can be deeply flawed and open to investigator bias or corruption. Just like your article is biased and corrupt.
You can sure get the mob raising their pitchforks, hollering for blood. You know, thats how the Nazis got the German masses to support their genocidal plans; stir up the fear with lies and hyperbole, put the weapons in their willing hands, point the muzzle and yell fire. Effectively done Bravura. Even a National Post Op Ed piece. You should be proud of yourself.
A soon to be prescribing ND
What an interesting read. This "fantistic piece" is riddled with errors and twisting of the facts you so strongly claim to adhere to. I strongly suggest you actually do some research and a little critical thinking before you slander another profession...one, incidentally, that does have a scientific basis and many, many years of clinical experience to back it up.
I appreciate there are differing point of views, as it allows us to look at issues from all angles. It is shameful arrogance to think that any one paradigm has all the answers...naturopathic medicine doesn't and neither does allopathic medicine. Science, while a useful tool, is still a tool. It something to be used to learn about the world we live in (yes...even providing explainations for how natural substances may work in the body...lets use ASA as an example). It should not be blindly followed like many seem to do...as might be expected in a faith based system. It is an error to think that those practicing as LICENSED naturopathic doctors discredit and disregard research. As for prescription rights, I don't believe the goal is to become medical doctors, but allow access to currently "restricted" therapies (yes...some of which are the glandulars you turn your nose up at) which are quite effective but potentially harmful. Who better to work with these things than LICENSED and qualified NDs, people who have been trained in their use? I can tell you this...allopathic practitioners, for the most part, don't have the adequate knowledge to be using them.
An observation - it is interesting that the use of probiotics and EFAs, which have been used by naturopathic practitioners for a very long time, were once thought to be "quackery" by the allopathic/pharmaceutical community. Strangely, many allopathic practitioners are now recommending them to their patients...maybe the quacks to have some good ideas.
There is so much more to say in addressing this baseless piece...we could talk for hours about the inadequacies of the pharmaceutical industry, but, alas, I don't have enough time. So I will end with this parting thought: Is it too much to think that both professions (both with their inherent strengths and weaknesses) can exist and work in harmony for the betterment of the patient? This is who we're trying to help, is it not?
@Anon: Why all the use of figurative and misleading language? Just say what you mean. If what you practice has scientific merit, argue that. Even if everything else a naturopath does it on the up and up, the fact that they continue to promote therapies that are dangerous and ineffective as *core methods in their practice* demonstrates that they are not ready to handle more responsibility in health care (i.e., prescribing).
How about responding in a factual way, rather than calling Scott ignorant? Also congratulations on bringing up the Nazis. I'm sure our Jewish readers will appreciate you comparing a blog entry to the murder of 6 million people.
@Ver: "Science, while a useful tool, is still a tool. ... It should not be blindly followed like many seem to do"
How does one blindly follow a tool? One uses a tool either effectively or not. Naturopathy is not using science effectively when they ignore whatever data they don't like, such as the overwhelming data that homeopathy doesn't work. If homeopathy did work, why aren't the drug companies cashing in? Because they have liability. They are heavily regulated. They can't sell products that are ineffective for the ailments they are claimed to cure.
Science works when used correctly. The reason "allopathic" doctors don't use some naturopathic methods is not because they don't understand them, but because they have been investigated at length and unfortunately they don't work. Science is also about letting go of things no matter how much you might want it to be true.
Also your last paragraph is 1) a tu quoque: The pharmaceutical industry is irrelevant to the objective effectiveness of naturopathic treatments like homeopathy; and 2) a false dichotomy: there is no "naturopathy vs medicine" - whatever works, works regardless of what it's called. And making sure something works, or at least has promise (as opposed to mountains of evidence otherwise) before administering a treatment to a patient IS working for the betterment of patient care. This is a quality control issue, not a matter of "rights".
@Kim: Figurative is different than misleading. Figurative language can be used effectively to illustrate a point without misleading with falsehoods. This type of language was used as a framework for Traditional Asian Medicine practices and it can be used today to help illustrate, in a general way, what a practitioner is trying to achieve.
I am curious which therapies you are referring to as "core methods" that are dangerous and/or ineffective. Yes, there is the potential for danger, as in any healing art practiced incorrectly. That is why we are trained and licensed. Ineffective? I know your answer to that one, but I have no interest in getting into the homeopathy debate. I would strongly disagree that many of our core modalities and treatments ARE demonstrably effective and, for that matter, much safer than modern medical pharmaceuticals.
I called Bravura ignorant AND responded in a factual way regarding his statement about the Canadian College of Naturopathic Medicine. I also called him a liar, a fabricator of untruths, willfully obstinate, a manipulator. And, I know, the Nazi card is pretty cliche. But if the shoe fits... I could have said he was like Mussolini. I thought of Sarah Palin, but she's probably a hero of his. The point was that he willfully and deliberately twists the truth and lies to create fear and raise support for his cause. And you, my dear, are one of the manipulated mob.
"Sometimes we understand the underlying physiological actions well."
Well, that's kinda stepping in it, isn't it?
The vitriol spewed at Scott over the last few days is, from a certain perspective, amusing. The well worn sentiment of "you should do some research before you comment" is in itself so laughable that it makes one wnat to cry. The point is that Scott HAS done his research - at length. He has followed the rules of evidence, weeded our poor data on the strength of solid logic and application of logical fallacy and above all, relied on science to indicate what works and what does not.
I find it amazing that people adhere so fervently to modalities that have no genuine effect when their evidence amounts to equivalents of "My Sister's cold got better three days after seeing her naturopath." Uh-huh? Really? I usually get better from my cold three days after not seeing my naturopath. (This is merely one basic example, but the essential form adheres regularly to the pro-ND arguments.)
Evidence of efficacy - real evidence of efficacy - comes when all confounding factors are eliminated and a measurable difference can be found that cannot also be attributed to another factor. On the surface, it is really very simple. Perhaps too simple, as many people seem to think that the sample size of their own personal subjective experience carries some kind of weight. Talk about arrogance.
I have to imagine that advocates of alt-med know deep down that their preciously held beliefs are under siege for good reason and that no amount of wishing it to be true will actually change reality, but boy oh boy do they hold to the hope that wishing will make it true, 'cause when someone starts pointing out the flaws - that's when the real hand waving starts.
Thanks for your thoughts Kimberly. As you may have figured out, I am a licensed ND. One that used scientific research my practice daily. I would say the challenge, in both allopathic and naturopathic fields, is that science sometimes can't keep up...there are too many questions and not enough answers! Not to mention huge social pressures that tend to steer the direction of research topics. The means and methods to truely study how natural substances may work are limited. The very nature of RCTs demands a reduction of item being tested to its fundamental parts to see how they work individually. This is useful, to be sure, but it does little to illuminate the interaction of the biochemicals within the item. Often, there are too many variables to consider (e.g. we can look at gingerols from ginger root and see how they act on their own...but do they act differently within the root as a whole and, if so, how are they interacting?). As such, we also must rely on the clinical experience and judgement of those practicing. I can tell you that I have used therapies on occassion that didn't have volumes of research behind them. I have used them based on my training and experience which has shown their efficacy...even if we don't always understand how and why they might work. Its the difference between textbook and clinical knowledge...this is something that most practicing docs will attest to! It is the hope and intention that science can catch up and provide us with more clarity and understanding.
My comment on the science as a tool: it is more that, in my experience, many follow the outcomes of "science" blindly without critical thought...I have no problem with believing in science (I do, in fact!)...but to do so blindly is allowing oneself to be pulled in to the "faith" category, which Scott is accusing all naturopathic docs of subscribing to.
Homeopathy always seems to come up and history has shown us that MDs and homeopaths (not necessarily naturopaths) have been at odds for a while, with the major shift stemming from the Flexner Report of 1910, when the powers that be shifted the requirements of medical schools to exclude homeopathic schools (of which there were many). With a little investigation, people will see that homeopathy is a part...not the totality...of what may be practiced by an ND. It is just one of the tools that may be used. Describing and understanding homeopathy takes a very long time as it is "outside the box". The nature of homeopathy makes it difficult to study as well...it doesn't really lend itself to the RCT with large n groups. The basis of it is individualized care. It seems a little odd to me that because something can't be measured with a tool (read: RCT) that you throw that thing out. Perhaps the wrong tool is being used! Why not use or devise a new tool that will allow a fair trial? On a clinical level (and I don't use homeopathy to a huge degree), I have seen profound change in individual patients treated with homeopathy. Naturopathic medicine is not homeopathy...they are two distinct groups with a few things in common.
I guess I got a little wordy...this is the last bit of my contribution!
In my last paragraph, I am not creating a false dichotomy, but making an observation that a dichotomy exists where it shouldn't. It is important to recognize that the differing professions each have something to offer...its not a matter of "rights", rather expertise in an area. Both professions, cooperatively, applying their ability to the betterment of the patient. Science should be neutral...impartially helping us to see clearly problems and solutions we face. The problem comes when views are presented in a skewed and incorrect manner, as is done in this article. Licensed Naturopathic Doctors who have spent years (my post secondary training amounts to 11 years of science based training - which includes a two year residency) undergoing vigorous training and completing internationally administered board examinations in both the traditional sciences (including pharm.) and in naturopathic modalities are being attacked using unfounded and baseless arguements. I would say, in my experience, most NDs would welcome working with MDs...I know I have, and do, work with them. We sometimes disagree to the best course of treatment, as would two MDs working together. More times than not, the patient really does come out ahead with cooperative care. I am simply saying that a division exists where it shouldn't and that articles like this one only serve to create and foster division...and the dichotomy you speak of. I hope I've described that adequately to make my point!
I guess I did have a little time! Thanks again.
I will not tolerate further comments equating a blog piece or one of our writers to Hitler, Mussolini, or any other world leader/dictator. Further exercising of Godwin's Law will be deleted without warning or notice.
Don't accuse Scott, or anyone for that matter, of being a "liar, manipulator" (et. al.) and then trot out that despicable personal attack in the next breath.
There are many modalities in medicine that are practiced without a good RCT behind them, but are practiced because there was good plausiblity and low risks associated with them. One such example is epinephrine in cardict arrest - it was thought it would be a good idea when it was added to the algorithm in the early 70's but no trials were offered to back up this claim - prior plausiblity was the only evidence offered.
Every 4 years an international panel convenes and looks at the current evidence to update the standards of care for cardiac arrest and arrhythmias and they change their minds based on the evidence. I have never heard an ND or other alt-health practitioner say "hey, we were wrong, the evidence shows no or little efficacy, perhaps we should re-think our ideas." They only seem to skirt the issue and say we need "a new tool" or a different type of study to uncover the real effect that we know is there.
Medical research discredits modalities all the time and they are discarded and practice is changed. The research done at the NCCAM in the US has failed to identify any new effective modalities or discredit old ones. With a 200 billion dollar investment, this seems odd and suggests that the research that is being done in into CAM is following a different structure and is not as rigourous as mainstream medical research.
Teasing out the effects of a set of chemicals, like gingerols for example, when acting together in a plant prep, does seem a bit daunting. What would you accept as evidence that it didn't work? It seems like the null hypothesis, the starting point for most scientific research, is ignored in CAM research and the trial's main focus is to prove that an effect exists. When it does not, the excuse is made that more studies are needed and we need a different way to measure it (the implication that we KNOW it must exist).
That does not sound like science to me: just wishful thinking.
Anon: Figurative is different than misleading? That's relative. If you're going to be inserted into science-based medicine, then clear concise language has to be used to that everyone is on the same page. But this is neither here nor there.
Core methods: colonics, homeopathy, ear candling, excessive hormone therapies, etc. These are the kinds of treatments that separate naturopathy into a class of it's own and none are supported by evidence. They are not objectively regulated. If you can demonstrate what you claim, then please do so, but no more Nazi talk. It's ridiculous and offensive. If you want to have a discussion, fine. Argue with evidence, not overwrought hyperbole. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they've been manipulated, are lying, are ignorant, or whatever other insult you're going to let fly in place of any actual evidence.
@Ver: Science sometimes can't keep up with what? I hear some pretty bold claims made by some naturopaths about treatments that have questionable (at best) evidence for efficacy. It's unethical to promote treatments to patients without fully disclosing potential efficacy issues. The fact that people can do that and still call themselves naturopaths demonstrates a serious issue within the profession. I also cite your "colleague" above and their behaviour, which is appalling.
If you think there isn't enough research, write a proposal and get some funding. Don't blame "science" for not keeping up. Naturopaths have the opportunity to fill these gaps.
Your assessment of RCTs is a little oversimplified. RCTs for one thing aren't considered individually as crushing or making an entire body of research - they build on previous research but provide more objective results. All of the results have to be looked at in context with other kinds of evidence. In the case of something like homeopathy, even the more poorly designed studies over the last 100 years fail to show any promise and the RCTs further demonstrate that it's a lost cause - not because they fail to "illuminate the interaction of the biochemicals within the item", but because they eliminate bias (i.e., the "I want this to work" effect). Simply blinding the experimenter and subjects doesn't eliminate the behind-the-scenes biological effects. Your personal experience is exactly my point - RCTs eliminate the effect of your desire for it to work. The mind is a powerful thing - people have convinced themselves of a lot more than "feeling better".
If you don't understand how and why something works, you need to investigate it to make sure that a) it actually works, b) it's not causing harm, and c) that there are no long-term side effects. It's ironic that you say RCTs are too simplistic when you rely on anecdotal data that fails to take into account long-term population-wide effects and overall efficacy.
Clinical knowledge should be based on *something* - some indication of efficacy based on objective reports. You can't say that science hasn't caught up with your super advanced methods without actually advocating for research. Who do you think does research? I'll tell you - it's the people interested in the question. Science isn't some entity, it's a method available for anyone to use. Find the answers you need. Accept an answer you may not like if there is overwhelming evidence that you should. Promote findings if you get them so other people can replicate it. You may find an objectively effective treatment for something important and change the world. Think about it.
Your claims regarding faith are, I think, related to your own bias and are not objective. You are relating your perception. You also seem to be implying that people have critical thought simply by not "following science" (whatever that means). Critical thought is simply the ability to objectively evaluate evidence. Sometimes it seems that naturopaths do have blind faith when they ignore science they don't like - such as the evidence against homeopathy. That is not objective.
You are special pleading with homeopathy. Your words boil down to "homeopathy is magic therefore it can't be studied by science" - essentially that is what would have to be the case for it not to be objectively studied. You can't on the one hand claim that you are willing to be science-based and then on the other hand claim that your treatments are not able to be studied. The reason homeopathy is "thrown out" is because it doesn't work. The same RCTs manage to find treatments that do work using the exact same methods. They are measuring the same things, in the same conditions, with similar patients. So tell me why, then, is homeopathy special enough to deserve an exemption from this most basic requirement? People are promoting homeopathy to treat *cancer*. That is appalling. There is NO evidence that this is effective. In patients with less severe and more nebulous issues, individual improvement needs to be investigated objectively to ensure that there hasn't been a placebo effect or a participation effect (i.e., they would have felt better if the naturopath had done literally anything).
There is no dichotomy either way. Like I said, what works, works. Sometimes that means we have to move on from things that don't. It would be awesome if something like homeopathy worked, but unfortunately it doesn't. It doesn't make sense to claim that science or Big Pharma etc are keeping it down, when if it worked it would be a huuuuuuuge industry (it already is despite its lack of demonstrable efficacy, due to lax regulation on "outside Western med" products).
If you want to be taken seriously as a profession, I would strongly advise refraining from using methods that have been demonstrably harmful or useless, and improve quality control. As long as there are still registered naturopaths able to use ear candling under your code of ethics, unfortunately I can't support you.
Kimberly,
I'd like to address a few of your points.
First, I think we would both agree that my collegue could have presented his ideas in a more constructive manner. It is a sensitive topic for most of us. Enough said on that.
You're once again caught up on homeopathy. I am well aware that RCTs don't encompass all of research (having been in the sciences myself for sometime now).
"homeopathy is magic therefore it can't be studied by science" - you are putting words in my mouth and twisting things. This is not what I said. What I did say is that not all things can be explained by conventional science at this time. Cast yourself back in history when willow bark was used as an analgesic...western society at the time had no idea why it worked...they just used it because they saw that conditions improved with its use. And so they used it. It was only later, through scientific method (which I feel I've already said...numerous times...is a good thing), that we discovered how this previously "magical" (as you call it) bark worked. All I'm suggesting is that perhaps there isn't an understanding that fits "conventional" science as we know it. I think its a little presumpuous to say we know everything about everything. It has nothing to do with wishful thinking. I was just as skeptical as you in the beginning...then I had the opportunity to learn and try it. I can tell you from clinical experience (and the results seen in many of my patients, adults, babies and even a few animals alike) that it does work. If there is no effect, how can you explain the potential adverse reactions that can result after administration of a remedy? You can argue placebo effect if you like...but that arguement, ultimately, doesn't hold much water. If you look at the history of medicine, you may also find that homeopathy was "thrown out" as you put it due to a changes made largely as a consequence of the Flexner Report - it had very little to do with medicine and more to do with the agenda of certain interest groups and the author of the report. This sparked the dawn of "modern medicine"...how much "scientific" study, I wonder, was performed to allow the "conventional" medical thinking of the time to prevail? Wikipedia gives a nice summary if you are so inclined. One final note, homeopathy, while not as popular in the North American bubble is incredibly strong in European countries (hardly backward thinking) and in emerging powers, such as India. Now having said all that...I feel I must say this one more time - there is much more to naturopathic medicine than homeopathy. Don't base your judgement on one facet of something.
The examples you site: ear candeling, colonics, "advance hormonal therapy" (not sure what you're talking about there), etc. The first two are not part of the core curriculum to be an ND. If these things are being performed...extra training must be attained first...just like it would have to be if it were a medical doctor doing them (which they do...by the way). I have never advocated ear candling, so be careful of painting an entire profession with such broad strokes. You can do find flaws and things people are doing that seem a little strange in just about any profession...occupational therapy included. :)
Finally, I have never made the comment that naturopathic methods are "superadvanced" as you put it...so much so that science can't catch up, no less. What I am saying is the breadth of information and knowledge that is still to be gained is rather large compared to what we already know. You seem to be applying your own set of biases to your arguement...just as you suggested I was. It seems bias is a prevalent thing.
With all of these arguements presented...I can assure you that if it didn't work...I wouldn't be doing it. I am not some unintelligent git that just stumbled into this field. If it didn't have merit, I would be out of a job. Does it work all the time...no...but then neither does any form of medicine. The vast majority of my patient base comes from referrals...from patients that have had their condition improve after our visits (or even one visit!). Not from scare tactics or trickery. Many also come after going through "conventional" medical system, which has written them off or can offer no relief. Your assertion that all of naturopathic medicine "doesn't work" demonstrates to me that you are a little blind to what naturopathic medicine actually is and is not. You don't have to support it...but at the very least, base your opinion on both sides of the equation and accurate information.
Thanks for the great discussion.
Interesting that you picked Willow bark, as it was studied once it was brought to the attention of modern physicians and over time people found how and why it works. Homeopathy (which I am "hung up on" because it is so prevalent within naturopathic treatments) has been thoroughly studied for decades and has turned up bupkis. Yes, things start with anecdotal reports, then they move on to more and more advanced studies - that's how discoveries work. The trouble with homeopathy is that, unlike Willow bark, no objective efficacy was found.
You claimed that traditional scientific methods that work for everything else (i.e., Willow bark) don't work for homeopathy. That doesn't make sense unless homeopathy is magically different from other interventions. So I'm aware that's not what you said, but that is what it boils down to.
"If there is no effect, how can you explain the potential adverse reactions that can result after administration of a remedy?"
It depends on the kind of remedy but: allergic reaction, worsening of underlying condition, unregulated products containing ingredients they aren't supposed to, psychologically-induced somatic symptoms, etc. Also, are you now admitting that these products do cause side effects? Because I often hear from naturopaths that they don't (as opposed to that dirty, toxic allopathic medicine).
"It's popular in other places" is an argument ad populum.
"You can argue placebo effect if you like...but that arguement, ultimately, doesn't hold much water."
Why not? Why do your anecdotal reports hold more water?
I realize there is more to naturopathy than homeopathy, but the fact that naturopaths use and defend something so glaringly ineffective demonstrates that they do not have an objective view of medical treatments. You want so badly for homeopathy to work that you continue to blame everything under the sun except the treatment itself for why we can't find any evidence for efficacy.
I realize that not all naturopaths do thing like ear candling, but you seem to be missing my point - the fact that any naturopath can do something as dangerous as this and still call themselves a naturopath is disturbing. It indicates a lack of quality control within the profession.
You seem to be taking my humorous flair literally. You did say that science hasn't caught up.
"With all of these arguements presented...I can assure you that if it didn't work...I wouldn't be doing it."
Then prove it. I can't rely on your assurance. You are not infallible. How do you know it works? What objective measures do you use? What research have you done? You criticize bias, yet ignore your own. We all have bias. That's the point of using scientific methods - to eliminate it as much as possible.
Your last paragraph seems to have missed my point about the placebo effect and the "therapy effect" (i.e., simply seeing someone at all helps a little). How do you know they've improved? Again, what objectives measures do you use? If they can't be studied with modern science, how can they be evaluated objectively in an individual patient?
By the way, please don't put words in my mouth (re: all of naturopathic medicine doesn't work... I never said that).
You assume that I assume you're a git, then you assume I haven't properly looked at the research. You realize it's possible to objectively disagree, right? One or the other person doesn't have to be blanketly ignorant.
Finally, I never said my profession was perfect. So again a tu quoque.
Ok, the Palin reference keeps drawing me back, even if it is a somewhat low hanging fruit. Reason has no party association. That is all.
Alright, my apologies for bringing up the Nazi thing and ruffling feathers. It was truly bad form (and I didn't realize I would be losing the argument by bringing it up, but it is admittedly, a cheap shot--does Godwin's Law apply to Sarah Palin yet? ;)). Just making a point regarding the power of words to stir the masses, while being based on false assertions. I still stick to my assessment that the article was rife with manipulative and misleading information and fabrications.
@ Jedi: Show me a doctor, pharmacist, researcher who is certain of the underlying mechanism of action for every drug. Just look in the CPS and you will find "mechanism of action unknown" again and again. The same holds true for medicines used by naturopaths. That doesn't mean we don't continually strive for understanding and scientific validation of the medicines we use. And, by the same token, critical assessment of the evidence is made and when there is negative evidence, the
You keep on talking about what we believe. I certainly do not approach naturopathy as a religion, although it is characterized as such by those who wish to invalidate it. And those who do see it as a religion, I don't have much patience for. You pray at the altar of evidence-based medicine, and you are guilty of the same things you accuse us: refusal to acknowledge any flaw with the paradigm. So don't try your foolish Jedi mind tricks on me.
Again, I do sincerely apologize for the offending comments before. Emotions run high and judgment flies out the window, as mine did before. I will defer to my colleague "Viriditas", as his/her cogent argument echoes much of my own sentiment, and I fear my own credibility has been inalterably damaged here (if it was ever given the benefit). I do look forward to a time where there will be more understanding. Scrutiny and skepticism are great attributes to have, especially in an age where our choices are so vast. But I do think that scrutiny and critical appraisal has turned to cynical rhetoric in this forum. And, honestly, you guys have a picture of the modern naturopath that is out of whack with the reality with in which I and, I presume, Viriditas, practice.
Cheers.
Great post.
-r.c.
@Anonymous
"Show me a doctor, pharmacist, researcher who is certain of the underlying mechanism of action for every drug."
Errr... Either I am missing your point, or you have utterly misinterpreted mine.
I was talking about evidence of effect above statistical noise (not that I said it in precisely those terms) - I make no mention of mechanism.
Before one can determine mechanism, one must determine actual effect... and vast swaths of the Alt-med spectrum cannot even get past that first hurdle.
Oh, horrors, not “cynical rhetoric”! Nothing wrong with either of those things. I rather like them!
As a card-carrying alternative medicine professional, a Registered Massage Therapist, I think Scott’s article is excellent, and I mostly agree with every criticism of alternative medicine and naturopathy I’ve seen here. It all seems spot on to me.
I think that my alt-med colleagues and I have earned every bit of criticism we are are getting, and I think that the even our harshest critics are being surprisingly polite. There’s much worse criticism coming to us if we don’t smarten up. Patients have flocked to alternative medicine in droves for many complicated reasons over the last couple decades, mostly emotional ones, but they will flock away again if alt-med professionals don’t learn to respond to criticism by demonstrating a much stronger comprehension of science, and respect for it.
People are not fools: as Jedi School Drop Out just alluded to, efficacy is the thing, not mechanism. Patients know (better than many NDs, apparently) that we can test whether or not something works regardless of whether or not we understand the mechanism.
As alternative medicine has become a big deal, expensive and ineffective remedies and therapies are irritating patients in impressive numbers. And those irritated patients aren’t generally going back to their NDs and complaining about the lack of results. But they are certainly complaining about it to me! I hear it every day.
Kimberly,
I just can't resist! You seem to be misinterpreting my words.
I have done my best to try to explain why homeopathy is a difficult thing to prove within the standard scientific paradigm. You seem to be missing the point. I think I have a problem with your use of the term magical...it is misleading and inflammatory. Just because you can't explain something with the tools you have at the moment...doesn't make it magical. The willow example was meant to illustrate this. The science wasn't around to show that it worked...it took time to get there. Willow is just one example...there are many traditional treatments that were over the ages viewed as magical...only later to be "discovered" by science. I am only postulating the possibility that science hasn't reached the point where it can adequately explain how it works. I'm not saying homeopathy is super advanced...only that how it may work hasn't been illuminated yet. There are some ideas that the answer may lie in the realm of quantum physics, but this might be getting dangerously close to being magic too...since we can't fully explain it. I would love to show you all the studies that shows it works. I would suggest that its being measured with the wrong tool. As for studies being done assessing other naturopathic therapies...they are out there and more are coming. These things take time.
Adverse reactions to homeopathy are very, very rare...allergy shouldn't be an issue now should it...it is just sugar after all, theres nothing there. Natural health products are regulated in Canada under the Natural Health Product Directorate...not to mention many come from rather high tech and reputable suppliers (many are based in western Europe). Psychologically enduced somatic response? My goodness...well...yes I suppose that could be the case. How do you explain the effectiveness (reported by parents) in children and animals? I suppose you wouldn't explain it...science can't give you a number to go by.
My reporting to you a few of my experiences (which I would have thought you would have appreciated) as someone who is actually practicing was intended to help you to see things a bit differently. The fact that naturopathic docs have been practicing for as long as they have might lend some weight to the effectiveness of what we do overall. People aren't forced to come...they come by choice because they are looking for alternatives to the "standard" care offered. Some are extremely ill and so may be desperate, many, however are not. I don't expect a skeptic to accept my word...why would you? The studies are coming. Studies give lots of good data and numbers. But, we can sometimes be too attached to laboratory results (which I do support and incorporate into my plans), but you can't discount what a patient says. I was trying to explain that patients come in and say...well...all the labs say I'm fine...but I feel terrible! This is the reason some come in...because the doc says...well...I don't know what to do with you because my measurement tools are telling me your fine. The patient feels written off by the system. This is the art of practicing medicine...sometimes the "science" can't be applied to a situation. Learning the art of practice is what takes years...and, in my opinion, is what separates the good practitioner from the bad. Surely you must have experienced these with your patient base. "Functional medicine" is something in the allopathic world that looks at this. You shouldn't reduce patients to numbers and lab values (although these do help you to see the whole)...doing so provides a rather tubular view of the patient. People know when they feel better.
Disregarding an entire profession based on one aspect of it shows a remarkably narrow view. Because I may know homeopathy can work based on my experience and you disagree...doesn't mean my ability to assess a patient and prescribe an appropriate natural therapeutic plan is compromised (as I mentioned...homeopathy is a very small part of my practice). There are those in the allopathic field that also practice these methods...does that mean the allopathic professions should be completely disregarded? My referring to your profession was not meant to insult...only to say that there are those practicing OT that may be doing things you consider questionable by your regulatory standards...does that invalidate the profession as a whole? You imply that naturopathic medicine doesn't work...based on one aspect of it. I never claimed to be unbiased...in fact...I said it seems to be pretty prevalent...in all of us.
As for me being a git! How am I to respond to someone that supports an article in the NP that accuses me of being a quack. Surely this is not a term of endearment. I am all for objective discussions as I mentioned before...but derogatory name calling from one professional to another (even if we don't agree) does nothing to advance understanding and cooperation. I do commend you on our discussions, you seem to have a better understanding than Scott does
(based on his article).
Hey Paul,
Nothing wrong with cynicism? You believe the worst of people? And wish to use your powers of persuasion to convince others of that? OK...
I have nothing against holding the therapies I use up to the rigours of science. And I do agree that there are plenty of alternative therapies that are questionable if not insulting to one's intelligence (take ionic foot baths, for example). But, as you may well know, there are a many excellent and effective medicines and therapies employed by naturopaths. And not all have the studies to back them up, yet, but there are plenty that do. So to make statements like all natural therapies are bunk (which is the prevailing theme on this blog) is disingenuous, to say the least.
What I take umbrage with is Gavura's unprofessional, misleading, defamatory attack. It is a blatant misrepresentation of naturopathy. How does it separate him from those he criticizes for practicing "magic"? (There's some more rhetoric. Just for you, Paul.)
"The science wasn't around to show that it worked...it took time to get there."
In 200 years there has been no demonstrable objective efficacy for homeopathy, nor a mechanism of action. In that amount of time we figured out Willow bark, extracted it's key active ingredient, figured out the mechanisms of action, how it's metabolized, and multiple applications for the treatment. There is no valid reason for homeopathy to be exempt from these standards.
Science is perfectly capable of explaining a physiological mechanism that should, by definition, manifest as a measurable improvement in symptoms (if not, then you couldn't determine efficacy yourself, even anecdotally). Yet homeopathy mysteriously remains elusive? That is a cop out. You have the burden of proof for your claims.
Again: All people are all subject to bias - HCPs, patients, parents, pet owners, etc. That is why we need objective measures. "Improvement" in these groups with particular therapies are only reported anecdotally and are completely unsupported otherwise despite years of investigation, in some cases.
Re product regulation:
http://www.cpjournal.ca/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.3821%2F1913-701X-142.6.265.a&ct=1 This is a complex and ongoing issue, beyond the scope of our current discussion.
Length of time practicing is completely irrelevant to the efficacy of treatments - for all I know you could be doing something completely wrong for 30 years without realizing it (and before you take me literally, I didn't say that's what you were doing, it was an example). Only *objective* outcome measures can *reliably* determine effectiveness of a treatment.
"The studies are coming. Studies give lots of good data and numbers. But, we can sometimes be too attached to laboratory results"
Objective measures in the patients you have are not "laboratory results". They are a bare minimum standard of determining efficacy en vivo.
As it is, you have unreliable patient report - people at their wits end eager to feel better are probably the least objective people you could ask. However, if you give someone a treatment to lower blood pressure, it's easy enough to measure whether or not their blood pressure has actually lowered rather than asking them if they feel better. I really don't understand the resistance to these methods.
It's very convenient that if you can't prove efficacy, rather than disregarding the treatment as the rest of us have to do, you get to blame everything other than the treatment itself and keep on using it. Do you not see how this is perceived as blind?
Like I have said about 4 times: This is about a group that has some naturopaths practicing something completely contradictory to others. You don't do ear candling, super. But some naturopaths do and it's very, very dangerous. That is a significant problem with your profession and a significant quality control issue that affects patient safety.
I would gladly report any "allopathic" HCP using using ear candling, even if they're OTs. We have a code of ethics and standards of practice and something like ear candling rightly does not fall within either. I'm extremely glad to hear that you don't use it, but other naturopaths are free to use it and keep calling themselves naturopaths. That's something that should stop.
If I witnessed any OT or other HCP were doing something needlessly dangerous and unsupported, I assure you that it would go through the proper channels to have it stopped immediately. It *would* invalidate my profession if instead we generally kept quiet and allowed dangerous practices to continue under the label of "alternative".
And I assure you that Scott, while passionate, does have a very clear understanding of the issues.
Can the ND's in this discussion profide links to the animal studies that have confirmed that homeopathy works?
As far as ND's using the natural pharmocopia to treat disease, I would never suggest that it is not plausible and many extracts and preps do have measureable effects - St. John's wort is a good example.
What my concern is that these chemicals are being passed off as better for you than purified and tested medications, which are more quantifiable (when I give 900 mcg ventolin, I know that there are no adulterations in the medication and it is a pure substance, and, given an unexpired medication, is always going to be 900 mcg of ventolin)and is aa known chemical substance that can be described (the formula for ventolin can be found on Wiki - a simpl molecule)
The variablity of plant-based tinctures, suspensions and other preps is well known - and these are off-the shelf and industrially produced. Someone who is offering preps of herbs of unknown quality or viability (like many of the chinese herb shops, for example) could not possibly make the same claims of purity and consistancy as the drug company who provides me my ventolin in a metered dose inhaler.
How can this be a scientific endeavour if the medications being dispensed are so highly variable and unquantifiable? And if they are, then should they not be held to the same standard as medications?
I always question the excuse that "I have been written off by my doctor" as a true statement. No doctor I have ever met has "written off" their patient. It is my experiences that patient's hear what they want to hear many times. This fact combined with the very limited time a doctor or nurse-educator can spend with a patient (which bother's me to no end, let me tell you), leads me to suspect that the rush to alt-med is a consequence of poor "customer service" (though I also hate the customer-service model of health care) rather than a rejection of western medicine.
I am curious as well: what kind of lab and diagnostic testing is available to ND's and how does this impact their diagnostic decisions?
Anonymous
First of all, if you're going to make accusatory statements towards anyone, at least show some identifying marks so we don't have to type "Anonymous". It's cowardly, and this is not ebaumsworld.com.
Secondly, the bill itself does not distinguish those that distribute herbal supplements that have real (if inconsistent and under-regulated) effects, and those that practice therapeutic touch, homeopathy, and colonic hydrotherapy. All of which are taught at the Naturopathic College in question.
This is not about slander, libel, defamation or misrepresentation. The facts are perfectly clear, and since the facts are not on the side of the ambiguously-large umbrella term that is "naturopathy", then its supporters resort to political and legislative battles.
If naturopathy was worth its diluted-salt, then the scientific consensus would be very clear in support. When was the last time you heard a cardiologist or neurosurgeon complain about defamation against the disciplines of cardiology or neuroscience?
It doesn't happen, because the science is on their side. Science and evidence is not on the side of naturopathy, which probably explains a great deal why naturopaths and their supporters resort to the language of personal attacks (accusing critics of libel, slander and defamation, as well as meaningless calls accusing conflict of interest with "big pharma"), rather than the language of science (citing numerous peer-reviewed studies in reputable scientific journals).
There is so much to say! I have to do a coles notes version - I have a long day of arm waving and dancing around my patients tomorrow.
1. "Science is perfectly capable of explaining a physiological mechanism that should, by definition, manifest as a measurable improvement in symptom" - then why can't we explaing the mechanism of action of so many pharmaceuticals (and, granted, botanicals)? Interesting to note as well, that symptoms are often subjective reports...
2. My patients, as I said, are not swooning with desparation when they come in, unable to effectively articulate their symptoms to me...eager to lap up any information provided to them. Most have very good critical questions...and are allowed the time to ask them.
3. I also don't like the customer service aspect of health care. I wish all practitioners could spend the time they would like to with patients...but this isn't the case. And I don't fault practicing doctors for that...I've never met one that said, "gee...I can't wait to spend 5 minutes with my patient." They're a victim of the system too.
4. Of course objective measures are important. Nobody said they weren't. We use objective findings too - yes, we measure temperature, BP, HR, read labs, auscultate various parts of the body, etc. If you put so much faith in objective measure alone, you are missing a critical part of patient care. You use your subjective observation (as well as rely on subjective reports from the patient) during every interaction with a patient. Do you discredit all subjective information, just because a lab tells you something different? Hmmm...hope its not a false negative.
5. Convenient to not have to proove efficacy. Wow...thats a little rediculous. As I have said, ad nauseum, the studies being used to measure homeopathy (to my knowledge) don't measure homeopathy based on its philosophy and teaching. You are applying a system of study, as valuable as it is, to something it doesn't easily apply to. If you can show me a study that convincingly shows that homeopathy is bogus (that is one that takes this philosophy into account) I would read it and revise my opinion! I would wager that most NDs have and would change their treatment protocols based on new scientific evidence. I know I have. The fact that you hold so strongly to your beliefs and are unable to even consider the possibility that there may be something beyond the realm of current scientific knowledge is saddening. A tu quoque.
6. Much of the education in this rather rigorous program is science based. Steve, check your source, colonics and therapeutic touch are not part of the curriculum - I attended the college in question and have first hand knowledge of the situation. They are talked about, just like nutrition is at medical school, but not methodically taught. I've never done a colonic in my life...and don't know anyone that has (without additional training).
7. Naturopathic Doctors are regulated, much like many other professions, by a board that is there to ensure public safety. They are not hunkered down in some smokey back room hatching a plan on how we can keep those using questionable and potentially dangerous therapies in practice. It always amazes me that people oppose a profession trying to get legislation that will allow them to do this job more effectively. As with any profession, the board can't get everyone all the time...as well intentioned as they are.
8. As for standardization, Michael. I would say that most of the supplementation (botanical and vitamins alike) are standardized to a particular ingredient (gingerols for example!). Tinctures are a little more difficult as the batch depends on the plants used in them...they're a complex mixture! We do our best to ensure the products we use are of high quality - adhering to GMP, third party testing, etc. Is it perfect, probably not...but in my experience, different batches of the same supplement do have the same results (yes...there are results!) for my patients. The complexity of the preparations is what I mentioned in a previous post...it makes it harder to study with the current scientific model. That said...there is a lot of research coming out regarding the effects of CAM - positive or negative. The College, for example, has a strong and growing research department that collaborates internationally with other researchers.
9. "patients being written off" is strong language. It is how they describe it, but I'm not so naive to actually think that all MDs have done so. It is not unreasonable to believe, when the patients tell me, that their doctor is stumped...they're not sure what avenue to take or what to do next. I was accused of thinking myself infalable earlier...I am not...and neither are allopathic docs.
10. We are trained in the same laboratory diagnostics as MDs are. If we run them, it is at a cost to the patient. Some NDs have in house labs (urine, etc.) and others (for stool analysis for example) send them to external labs. The unfortunate part is that if we do them, it has to be at a cost to the patient (which we're not a fan of). I often rely on or work with an MD who requisitions the required tests.
11. Steve, you're right, I would say the umbrella is large. This is part of the goal of NDs - to streamline and provide a better definition of who we are, our training, and what we do. Of course there isn't much defamation of cardiologists or neuroscientists (although the later could be debated...), they have been defined by the standards (science) they have invented. There is, however, disagreement amongst themselves...why does one cardio do and angioplasty, while another chooses not to? Neuroscience is full of unknowns...so, could be open to criticism. These disciplines have been using their methods to validate what they do (nothing wrong with that) for quite a while now - although, the development of bipass surgeries, I do believe, went ahead without a load of studies to support it. It was mostly retrospective. - while, naturopathy has only recently entered the arena. Its not surprising the body of "evidence" is less, although botanicals have been studied quite well in terms of their constituent parts.
12. Steve, to speak to your final point regarding critics. I, and many of my colleagues, don't mind critics. Looking at things critically is an important thing to do. I think the problem comes when critics use derogatory language (calling a professional a quack, for example), make unqualified claims (as was presented in the NP article) and provide a generally biased point of view. If there was a balanced approach discussion...at least a base of mutual respect for each other then things would be ok. As demonstrated by Scott's article, naturopaths were clearly slandered and lambasted unfairly. You may be a little more educated in these matters, consider joe blow regular person out there reading that article...how can one expect them to form an educated opinion when the article was clearly written to be offensive and inflammatory to those practicing naturopathic medicine (quite safely and effectively, I might add)? And, I think its fair to say there may be conflicts of interest in studies published by pharmaceutical companies showing the efficacy of their product. Conflicts of interest abound in all spheres.
Ok...I think thats it for tonight - sorry for the long post. I didn't answer the pet studies question because I don't have the studies handy...and its late. Don't think too badly of me...thanks for the good discussion.
What is going on here?
Why is everyone sitting on the subject of Efficacy and Evidence...
That isn't even what this is all about!
Plain and simple,
Naturopathy is a pseudoscience. It just plain is, you get a conclusion and you gather data to support it. (and ignore the stuff that doesn't I might add)
Medical Science is Science, it gathers data, THEN it draws it's conclusions. There, that part is covered.
It doesn't matter if someone wants to look into an alternative medicine. If it works for them, awesome! Whether the placebo effect (which shouldn't be undersold, the placebo effect has been proven to have VERY strong effects)or some sort of natural remedy you've tried out. However... this isn't the point.
ND's are vying for the right to hand out drugs, THAT is the issue. Your very principals are buried in your name. You deal with the "Natural" so leave the "Medication" to those who practice medical science. You are NOT trained under the same medical standards that MDs are. Let's be clear about this.
You have already mentioned that you would love to work closer to MDs... so do that instead! If you think a patient of yours requires antibiotics because you noticed this, that and the other thing. Tell your patient to go see their/an MD because I've noticed this, that and the other thing. See if he/she notices that too, if he does, he should prescribe you the drug.
You said you wanted to work with them, so then work with them! Build a rapport with the Medical Doctors in your area. When it comes to drugs, the line needs to be drawn at MDs, if you want to give them the option of being their second opinion first that's fine, but then send them to the MD.
I'm sorry but you know the main reason why the government is willing to work with you on this right? It is because of the assurance you have given them that you can help rid them of wait times in clinics. It will look great on the surface and be great for population moral to see wait times down, but really we are just ignoring that fact that you are not qualified to practice medical science and prescribe Meds. But if you think you notice something, send them to the MD, that's what they're there for.
What about the pharmacist? Is he supposed to sit back and just give a medication to someone that, his training says, has been wrongly prescribed to this patient? Is he/she liable? Should there maybe be a Bill to give the Pharmacist the right do deny a precription given by an ND? I realize you could make the same argument about the MD's prescription, but the MD and the pharmacist both know their drugs. NDs are supposed to know nature, so please, please, PLEASE don't hand out drugs to my friends. Tell them to go to their doctors for that. Who cares if they have to wait in line for an extra 30 minutes, this is their health we're talking about. Drugs have very real side effects and NEED to be prescribed by a qualified Medical practitioner.
I still don't understand this. You have set yourselves up for the business of being an alternative to "Medical science" and now you want to give drugs...WHAT??? Isn't this very hypocritical? If you want to dish the drugs then go get the education that an MD does on top of your ND qualifications.
But PLEASE don't hurt my friends that go to see you by giving them a drug that they should go to a doctor for. They TRUST you and your natural methods, your principal values are based on this isn't it? So please don't mislead them into something you haven't been qualified to handle. Send them to the right place for drugs, an MD.
Love to see the comments from the NDs, you keep digging the hole deeper with each comment. Delightful.
Fascinating comments.
Godwin's law invoked in just 12 from a "soon to be prescribing ND", I wonder if that's a new record!
As some of the commenters here have observed, it's ironic that the ND community is up in arms about Scott's belief that they shouldn't be allowed to prescribe modern medications - the very stuff they in many cases purport to be part of the ills of modern healthcare.
Irony aside Scott, in what is certainly a very opinionated piece, makes it very clear that he doesn't believe there's a scientific basis for naturopathy and consequently he's very uncomfortable with the notion of a non-scientific community being given the right to dispense medications.
The fact that the piece is opinionated doesn't really bother me, nor should it bother the NDs, it's an op-ed - it's of course supposed to be opinionated and I would argue that the uproar over his choice of words and his "smearing" of the profession is simply sour grapes. A more appropriate response in my mind would be to write a thoughtful rebuttal replete with firmly held and sharply written opinions and then submit it for consideration to the Post for publication.
Me? As a physician my main concern is by providing NDs with the right to prescribe it may steer Canadians away from MDs and in some cases keep them away from MDs long enough to cause harm.
Do I have a vested interest in the outcomes? You might say yes of course because I'm a doc, it'd be taking away my livelihood if NDs were allowed to prescribe. Of course you'd be wrong if you thought that was the source of my concerns - sadly there will always be far too much supply and far too little demand for healthcare services.
I share Scott's concerns regarding a non-evidenced based discipline. NDs, if you think Scott and I are wrong or misguided yelling at him doesn't make you look any more credible. Why not provide him with evidence-based reassurance that his concerns are unfounded. I can't speak for Scott but I know that I don't automatically look down my nose at any therapeutic modality (and I doubt Scott does either) - but I do however insist that well designed, evidence based proof be provided before I recommend or endorse any intervention and indeed I'd be quite uncomfortable for any non-evidence based practitioner, MDs included, to be prescribing any combination of Western medicine or tradional medicine to unsuspecting Canadians.
I wonder - and at this point I'm moving onto larger issues - what kind of oversight is build into the ND arm of the Healthcare system?
It's easy to point to the failures in the Standard Medical realm because of mandated reporting of error. And those numbers are conflated when people go to NDs, don't get critical treatment they need and (in worst case) end up in an Emergency ward - dying on the record of the Standard Medical community. Does it work the other way? I do not know.
Further - what sort of regulatory body is there? We know who in this thread doesn't use ear candling. That is great. We can accept that there are aspects of Naturopathy that are at the very least, far more plausible than others (the degree depends on the specifics) - but is there anyone whose job it is to review who is doing what and shine a light on the modalities that fail to show an effect or are dangerous?
If there is no such body governing NDs - why not? Wouldn't it give those of you who are genuinely doing good work better credibility? And in the absence of such a overseeing body, the existence of net-izen watch-dogs is a necessity, even if it doesn't have direct authority.
So... if there are 'good' NDs and 'bad' NDs - perhaps the 'good' NDs should pull their wagons out of the circle and join us here in the marauders.
I'd also like to add something very important to this whole scenario. Right now we have standards in place for a reason. An MD has to go through a whole-lot of training to get the right to prescribe Meds. Because, as it's been said, they have very serious effects and side effects.
Now, with this Bill, we are talking about making it possible for underqualified NDs to prescribe Meds without following the same standards? What does this mean? We just throw out this very important standard because it's... convenient? What's the point of the standard? Can we really just disregard this important standard that we've had in place so long to protect the citizens of Canada?
They need to ammend this Bill before it's passed and this part needs to be taken out. This is of the upmost importance. I'm all for making healthcare more accessible to Canadaians, but not like this... not like this.
I apologize for my last rather lengthy post, but some of the issues raised since have been adressed there.
I agree...the stream did get away from the issue of prescription rights. The reason for our looking for prescription rights does not come from a place if hipocrisy. Over the last several years there have been therapeutic natural stubstances that have been removed from our scope of practice and placed under the "prescription only" category, based on the potential to cause harm. Now it is impossible for licensed practicing naturopaths to access these substances that have a substatiated use and have been used for a very long time. These include various herbs and glandular formulations. Part of the prescription request is so that we can regain access to these previously efficacious tools. MDs, as much as they know, don't know...and are not trained in their use...why should they have prescription rights to something they know little about? Isn't this what the arguement against ND prescription rights is about? The medications that would be available to MDs does not amount to the entire pharmacopea...rather the more commonly prescribed medications.
I have no desire to write a script for everyone that walks into the office, but having the option is a good thing. I don't think all pharmaceuticals are bad, indeed, I have even made recommendations to patients to stay on their meds. I have never changed a medication prescrition without the involvment of the prescribing physician - this is professional courtesy, a measure of respect. I have, however, had medical doctors alter my treatment plans because they, and I quote, "don't know anything about that stuff." It seems, if they don't know about it...its gibberish. I would say that many NDs recognize the value, and yes the potential harm, that can come from medication use. Even if we may suggest something different first. It is part of our extensive medical training (whether you believe that or not...) to learn to recognize when something is out of our scope and to suggest referral appropriately. It is important to know ones limitations...and that applies to all professions. I do, and have, worked with MDs. Indeed I even recieve referrals from them. I do value this relationship (as I think they do...since referrals come) and do my best to foster good relations with them. Yoni, I appreciate your thoughts, but wanted to be clear about one thing...I don't think we have any intention of wanting to replace MDs...how could we? A little cooperation, however, could go a long way. With respect to your evidence based comments...I feel we have gone over this already...there are people in both of our professions doing non-evidence based therapies...but it is inaccurate to say that NDs are unscientific (the research community at the college is an example of science...the majority of the classes I took - e.g. nutrition - had referenced material on each of the powerpoints). I pride myself on practicing scientifically and I know many of my colleagues do as well.
NDs do have pharma education as part of the curriculum. Are we pharmacists...no...don't really want to be. I can only assume pharacists don't want to do the natural therapies either...why then do they suggest nutritional supplementation (which is quite readily available in their pharmacies) without the appropriate training. Many, if used incorrectly, can do harm and may worsen a patients condition (of which the assisting pharmacist knows little about - they've only spoken with them for all of 20 seconds afterall). I can't tell you the number of patients I have that have come in on something natural inappropriately suggested by a pharmacist. Don't get me wrong, despite this, I still have a healthy respect for those who work in the field of pharmacy...its not an easy one.
When the ammendments are made to the legislation, I strongly doubt there will be NDs with pens poised over prescription pads waiting for the go ahead. There will be additional training, required continuing education and certification, which would be admistered by the regulating body (yes...jedi...as I mentioned...there are regulatory bodies...similar to those found in other regulated professions). To be a regulated member, you have to complete an accredited program (4 years in lenght - this is in addition to an undergraduate degree) and complete rigorous international board exams (round one is a day long examination often completed after 2nd year - assessing competency in the medical sciences. Round two is at the end of our 4 year education and assesses the clinical sciences - I wrote about 14 exams over a 3.5 day period) and then jurisdictional tests. While this has been said many times by others in various discussions I've seen...it still seems to be lost on some...which is why I mention it here once again.
"when people go to NDs, don't get critical treatment they need and (in worst case) end up in an Emergency ward - dying on the record of the Standard Medical community" - what an interesting quote from Jedi. Again, as a LICENSED naturopathic doc we are trained to recognize emergencies and to suggest appropriate emergency (often sent them to the hospital) action. Without getting into a pissing contest (wait...we may already be in one!), couldn't the same thing be said to be true of medical docs. How many have said...just go home you're fine...only to end up in the hospital a while later. As we said previously...nobody is infalable. Many seem to be focused on what you think we don't know...rather than looking, objectively, at what we do. I've even had a medical student ask me how I listened to heart sounds...surely an ND wouldn't know how to use a stethescope! (please excuse the sarcasm).
Annonymous #2 - thank you for your thoughtful contribution.
This is it from me. I'm not much of a blogger, but have, believe it or not, enjoyed the stream. While I'm sure I've done little to sway anyones position (you all seem pretty firmly entrenched here), I hope, at the very least, to have given a differing perspective from your own that has provoked some thought and maybe even a different (dare I say slightly positive) understanding of naturopathic medicine.
sorry dude, but you've presented nothing new that I haven't read before over the last few years
it's all special pleading
So I ask you, if Avogadro's number has bearing on bottled liquor, why not duck liver?
Quantum physics I presume? Except that Quantum Physics is, at this point, really a lot of theory and interesting math - that's what the LHC is for.
Regardless of whether evidence is found that supports quantum theory, it in no way negates the behaviour of atoms we've come to know and love - http://avogadro.openmolecules.net/wiki/Main_Page
We are not the entrenched, for we are open to new evidence, including that which shows our ideas to be wrong
You and your ilk are not
I am currently in a blinded, placebo controlled study testing a new drug for a deadly disease
I would have more respect for your "profession" if it had more respect for similar methods
You (and the others) have not provided any new evidence, just the same tired old non arguments
Godwins law applies. ND are wannabe MD's. When they start killing people with their lack of any real medical knowledge, besides what they see on TV, Ontario will change it's mind. Guaranteed 'ole ezia wouldn't send their 4 year old to these quacks.
I don't think an ND should be able to prescribe heart medication or anti-depressants. However, my experience with MDs and NDs is that the MD is looking for a pill to prescribe to treat and cover up symptoms, whereas an ND is looking for a natural way to eliminate symptoms. Again, that's just been my personal experience and that of my family & friends.
I get my annual checkup and bloodwork every year from my MD, and I also go to my ND every year. (What a noble concept to think that each may serve a valid purpose). I don't know what kind of NDs Scott has been to (has he ever even gone to one or spoken to one?) but mine hasn't tried curing anything by waving her arms around or by offering me anything homeopathic.
I think the real reason Scott is so willing to bend the truth and dismiss every ND as nothing more than a snake-oil salesman is that he makes his living selling drugs. If too many people improve their diets or take supplements to improve their overall health, who's going to be buying pills from Scott?
"If too many people improve their diets or take supplements to improve their overall health, who's going to be buying pills from Scott?"
Epic nonsense. What proof do you have that Scott directly benefits from the sale of drugs? None. Because that's not true.
Not every ailment can be cured with diet and exercise.
Also, just because companies make money doesn't mean their products are ineffective. Are naturopathic remedies free? No. So what's your point?
I hesitate to post here again, but I've been called out and I want to defend my statements. I have no intention of proving the validity of therapies employed by naturopaths, as I know it would fall on deaf ears. Evidence is available for anyone who cares to actually look into it. Even for Homeopathy.
But that is not the point. The point is that naturopaths have been accused of being untrained, unprofessional, and either treating with placebo and/or causing harm across the board. The attitude at this blog is entirely one-sided. Where does one go from there? Any legitimate criticism you might have is washed out by the prejudiced nature of your general stance.
On top of that, the "facts" you present are wrong in many cases. Steve Thomas, the naturopathic school in question (Canadian College of Naturopathic Medicine) does not contain colon hydrotherapy or therapeutic touch in its curriculum. Where exactly did you get that information from? It is not on the school's website. How can anyone trust anything you have to say if you cannot get these simple "facts" right.
It is this kind of abuse of the "facts" that I railed against earlier. Opinion is well and fine, but Gavura positions his opinion as fact throughout much of his article, and he is either inaccurate or manipulative throughout much of the article. It is a good way of convincing the naive of your point of view or to rally the "Skeptics", but it is certainly not, to appropriate a favourite term here, "evidence-based".
@Yoni, you call naturopathy a non-evidence based profession. But there are reams of evidence to back up our treatments. Not every thing we do has an RCT to back it up, but there are many other kinds of evidence, as I've stated before. I would also take exception to characterizing the profession as non-scientific. We operate under the same understanding about anatomy, physiology, biochemistry, etc. And I assure you that we are trained in principles and use of pharmaceuticals. We work with patients using a multitude of pharmaceuticals every day and have to navigate those waters safely and effectively. Prescribing rights are not naturopaths vying to prescribe the same drugs as medical doctors. That is not what we do. It is an attempt to get access to medicines that have been restricted (like certain herbs) because of safety concerns if used without proper knowledge (the knowledge we have). Gavura wonders what will happen if a naturopath prescribes a drug based on non-scientific principles. This is a preposterous assertion: first, if an ND were to prescribe a pharmaceutical drug for illegitimate reasons (like antibiotics for non-bacterial effusive otitis media? Oh, that was a low blow...) his or her license could be suspended, and second, what non-scientific principles would call for prescribing a drug? Vitalism?? We do not even view vitalism as Gavura positions we do (like the insulting statement that an ND would rely on "vital force" to save an intubated patient on life support--that kind of statement is assinine).
Yoni, perhaps your fear of ND's keeping patients away from MD's is real in certain cases. But if that kind of treatment resulted in harm or death of the patient through legitimate negligence I would fully support prosecution of said practitioner. But, as you say on your blog, you are in the habit of taking people off medication and directing them towards a healthy lifestyle. Not so different from what we as ND's do. It is the cornerstone of our profession. Truth be told, we ND's have more to fear from MD's encroaching into our territory of natural therapeutics. My kids' old pediatrician was in the habit of prescribing homeopathics (and we didn't choose her because of this... and it didn't keep us with her).
@Jedi, I do echo your call for more regulation. I hate the practitioners who use bogus therapies (however, we may not agree on exactly what constitutes "bogus"). The movement of ND's to the RHPA should be a good thing in your view (apart from the erradiaction of naturopathy as a profession... lol, and a cheer goes up from the crowd), as it updates the old rules under which we are currently regulated. The larger realm of natural health products is out of my personal control and the control of ND's as profession. I am concerned about substandard products, bogus marketing, illegitimate claims, etc. I hope the Natural Health Product Directorate will correct much of that. As an ND, I personally insist on consistency and quality in the supplements I recommend, and broader regulation is imminent
I don't expect I've changed any minds. Bring on the snide comments.
Anonymous, I'm not entirely sure you've actually read the article, or the rebuttals to your points. You're exhibiting behavior that borders on troll-like, and if you wish to continue to post here, I suggest you dial back the passive-aggression and ad-hominems. I'm going to write something that I've written elsewhere:
The science-based community is always at a disadvantage in these sorts of outcries, because we're limited to the evidence, and we can't just make stuff up. There's a lot to respond to.
1) With 23,000 doctors in Ontario, and fewer then 1000 naturopaths, the argument that granting naturopaths prescription rights will ease the burden on the healthcare system is a bit silly.
2) The assertion that the body has the potential to heal itself is not a scientific one. When given "natural" support only, the body will die by the age of 45, probably of infectious diseases. Modern advances in medicine make long-life possible, not herbs and roots from a 2,000 year old playbook.
3) Saying "science" doesn't make it so. The call of "the healing power of nature at work" to be not magic, but good science, is ridiculous on its face....the human body is really good at succumbing to pathogens and injury, and the "natural" world is really good at killing us.
4) Old and tradition do not a science make. Yes, herbal supplements have been around for centuries. So has prostitution. Old doesn't mean effective. It means old. I want my medicine to be new, awesome, and if possible, administered by a robot from the future.
5) Regulation does not a science make, even if it was 85 years ago.
6) I wonder, what is the naturopathic remedy for a broken bone? For that matter, how effective is naturopathic birth control?
7) Why the natural fetish? If you're dying from a disease, do you really care if your treatment is "natural" or not? Why take an herbal supplement that a person tells you *might* work, when you could take the most recent advances in medical technology that we know *will* work?
8) Natural doesn't mean safe. It doesn't mean effective. Arsenic, poisonous mushrooms, gravel and bird-crap are also natural and you don't see me putting them into my body.
9) Lets not forget that many people see a naturopath because they're dazzled by the word "Naturopathic Doctor, or ND". Let's be perfectly clear: Naturopaths are NOT doctors. The Naturopathy Act, 2007 allows them to be called "Naturopaths", not "doctors." You need to go to medical school to be called a doctor. Naturopaths just granted themselves that title as a subtle PR stunt.
10) What is the diagnostic method a naturopath uses to test if a body is "in balance"? What laboratory equipment can you use to check for "wellness"?
11) The calls that naturopaths aim to treat the root cause is nonsense, otherwise they wouldn't be asking to prescribe pain-killers, and anti-inflammatories.
12) If naturopathy is just as effective as medicine, then why don't these naturopaths just go to med school?....
(cont'd)
13) The medical community is constantly advocating good health, diet, nutrition and exercise...naturopaths don't have a monopoly on knowing the merits of preventative health.
14) Naturopathic college of Ontario requires a 4-year Bachelor's eduction, but does not require for a Bsc or any science pre-requisites. The historical GPA for entry to the CCNM is 3.3 (ranging from 2.8-3.7). Compare that to Med school, which is turning away people with 4.0 averages.
15) The length of time for training is meaningless if the education quality is so lackluster. I can study levitation for 20 years but it doesn't mean that I could fly.
16) "Every review of our record has recognized the safety of the more natural approach of naturopathic care." Every review? Really? Black Cohosh, anyone?
17) The authors conveniently left out the deaths attributed to naturopathic prescriptions in Washington and Oregon, showing once again their contempt for honest data-gathering and fondness for cherry-picking whatever information suits their pre-conceived narrative.
18) The CCNM is NOT associated with ANY Canadian university, and it's dishonest to artificially conflate the two together, even if you're being indirect about it.
19) "The need for NDs to have prescribing authority was accepted by every other regulated health profession" Not even close to accurate! The bill passed the first two readings because the relevant health care communities had approved of their OWN amendments, and was not reflective of the naturopathy amendments.
20) The CCNM also is also teaching homeopathy and colonic irrigation, neither of which do anything beyond a placebo effect....Back from your cherry-picking trip yet?
21) If passed, the committee to decide which drugs would be prescribed would be made up of naturopaths! Unelected naturopaths deciding what they can prescribe!
22) Since naturopaths *are unqualified* to prescribe medication, granting them these powers will create needless risk of drug contra-indications.
23) This is not about freedom of choice for the patient, and it never has been. This is about granting naturopathy legislative and legal legitimacy because it can't do so under the rules of science and evidence.
The scientific community is crystal clear on medicine, yet these people would have our very modern system degenerate with some very 19th century modalities.
Anonymous, two more points:
1) Do a search for "Ontario Naturopath Colonic" and you'll come up with an alarming number of hits. If you're so confident that colonics are not part of the standard mode of operation for naturopathic academics, then one wonders why it is so embarassingly ubiquitous in the naturopathic community.
2) My name is Steve Thoms. Not Steve Thomas. To use your own words, How can anyone trust anything you have to say if you cannot get these simple "facts" right.?
I keep seeing the argument from the NDs that they have "pharmaceutical education" included in their curriculum, and therefore wont be blindly prescribing drugs. Guess what? So do I! I have both undergraduate and graduate courses in pharmacology, pharmacokinetics, pharmacodynamics, and a plethora of human physiology. So, I should also be able to prescribe prescription drugs too right?!?!?! Sweet, oxycontin for everyone!
once more into the breach
just call me guinea pig, formerly anonymous
homeopathics are not natural any more than acupuncture is, yet both are breathlessly trumpeted on the CAND website
Alcohol can be readily found in nature as is duck liver, both inarguably natural substances as is water.
According to homeopathic principles, a regular 40pdr of rum (40%) is stronger than similar bottle of 151 (75.5%), despite having nearly 1/2 as much alcohol.
Anyone knows this is an inarguably false inverse ratio that is quite easily verified observationally and physically via several methods.
According to homeopathic principles if I keep adding water to the regular 40pdr and shake it in a special way, it will keep getting stronger than the bottle of 151 rum.
We all know this is false. Even the naturopaths and their apologists know that with every homeopathic iteration, it would require more and more shots from the "stronger" homeopathic 40pdr to reach the level of intoxication achieved from even a few shots of unadulerated 151.
As the iterations climb, eventually one could chug 60pdrs of homeopathic way-under-yet-somehow-overproof rum and never get as blasted as 7 one ounce shots of 151 straight or mixed responsibly.
These "principles" BTW, also mean all people busted for .08+ driving must be released and those passed as falsely sober must be tracked down and prenalized to the full extent of the law! But I digress...
We all know this is true, even the naturopaths and their apologists, and yet we are asked to accept that all the science they claim to abide by, the science that will inarguably and irrefutably backup my comments aboot good ol' C2H5OH - do not apply to duck liver?
So naturopath or apologist, please explain how adding water (shaken, not stirred) to duck liver will not decrease the potency when it so very obviously does for alcohol.
All ingredients are natural substances, yet homeopathically adding water to booze will behave differently, than when similarly added to duck liver, according to naturopaths.
Naturopaths that also claim to be science based despite all the science that shows their claims to be false.
You wanna provide healthcare, you jump through all the same hoops as those kind folks that are taking quite holistic care of me thank you very much, subject all your wares to the same rigour demanded of them.
Until then, you're a quack wrapped in the cloak of science and paying it lip service or you've been blinded by the pseudoscience of the marketing principles of a very profitable industry
Acupuncture is a similar bill of goods
What really burns my ass is these people have their hooks into Canada Post... all the wasted resources and public moola
guinea pig
damn, unadulterated
Please don't call these charlatans, "magicians" or their quackery, "magic". I practice the ancient and honorable craft of magic. I deceive, with others' permission, to entertain, not to make a buck off of sick people that should see a real doctor.
So far, we can sum up the points of CAM fanboys in a few words:
"I don't know how my medicine works, but you have to believe me"
"Because modern medicine does not satisfy patietns, therefore my medicine can"
"Science is not answer for everything, so my medicine is the answer for something".
Btw, it makes me laugh when I read this:
"Do you discredit all subjective information, just because a lab tells you something different?"
Of course I discard all my subjective opinions if RCT keeps telling me something different!!!. When the fact does not support your ideology, it is YOUR duty to discard your belief, that's how science works.
good point corbie
your profession is truly honorable and awesome
unlike that which is discussed here
most MDs earn the honour of calling themselves doctor and these people seem to have bestowed it upon themselves
and we're the arrogant ones
I have no intention of proving the validity of therapies employed by naturopaths - A naturopath
Shang et al - where homeopathy is shown to be as effective as well, not doing it (tried to link no worky)
Toothpick acupuncture - that's right, toothpicka are as effective as the ancient chinese secret(tried to link no worky)
Homeopathic self regulation? Or self flaggellation, given that reports to this august regulatory body of a member claiming to cure malaria/HIV were met with threats of lawsuit, not evidence of efficacy(tried to link no worky)
regulating homeopathy, acupuncture and by extension naturopathy (and lord knows what else these wanna bees are doing in the field) would be like regulating Hogwarts
how is it not borderline delusional to think that the time honoured process of dilution carried to the extremes by naturopaths would result in anything but a lessening of the amount of the substance being diluted and therefore its strength.
Fill an olympic pool with a 15C sol'n of anything a naturopath would offer you.
To have a 63 percent chance of ingesting even one molecule of the origianl substance, one would have to drink 1% of the volume of the pool or 25 tonnes of water.
Now treat your favourite alcoholic bevvie the same way. There would literally be no kick to champagne.
How could this not be so for any other substance?
The only thing the naturopaths have to seem going for them is effective marketing and lobbying, blurring the distinction between science and snakeoil in the mind of the public and our pubic servants. Effectively rebranding itself for every Pepsi generation.
The only relation to reality homeopathy and acupuncture (reiki, TT,...) have to reality is as mythical cultural artifacts. We might as well spend the money/resources on improving health care by building temples to Hygeia.
Opinions are nice, but I prefer mine to be backed by the best available evidence. The author of the original post kindly peppered it with links. I can safely assume that at least some of them are references in support of the comments.
How does one have an opinion on the acceleration due to gravity (at least on this beautiful blue marble)? You can't really, it is 32 ft/sec/sec whether you worship cows or eat them.
I have no intention of proving the validity of therapies employed by naturopaths - A naturopath
- was supposed to be a link to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0
Shang et al - a link to this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16125589
Toothpick acupuncture:
http://www.usnews.com/science/articles/2009/05/12/toothpicks-match-needles-for-acupuncture.html
Homeopathic self regulation:
http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2008/10/society-of-homeopaths-failure-of-self.html
guinea pig
Veriditas states above: “I ... don't mind critics,” but only as long as we do not have “a generally biased point of view.”
Verditas, please explain which point of view criticism should come from, if not a biased one. Please explain how realistic you think it is to go through life considering only criticisms from neutral critics. Please explain how bias invalidates criticism and makes you “mind” it. And, finally, please provide examples of criticism of your position that you do not reject due to bias.
Please ... do tell. Since bias concerns you so much, we’re all keen to hear your unbiased answers.
It seems that the bias in question that is verboten is that which is predicated on the process of eliminating as much bias as possible - science.
@ Veriditas (I apologize that it's a late reply, been working all weekend.)
I have 3 points I want to address from your last post.
(1) "Over the last several years there have been therapeutic natural substances that have been removed from our scope of practice and placed under the "prescription only" category, based on the potential to cause harm."
"Part of the prescription request is so that we can regain access to these previously efficacious tools."
Simple logic:
- Government says, "You're not qualified to use these"
- Government takes the "natural" substances away based on "potential to cause harm."
- Government says, "Ok, you can use them now... and all of these hundreds of other drugs too!"
Even if Naturopaths were only vying for the right to use their "therapeutic natural substances" again, it STILL wouldn't be ok. But you're not; you get hundreds of others too.
The government already said you don't meet the medical standards that they've set in place to protect the people of this province. In the very act of taking your products away from you, by your own admission I might add, proves that the government has already found you inadequate.
(2) "MDs, as much as they know, don't know... and are not trained in their use... why should they have prescription rights to something they know little about? Isn't this what the argument against ND prescription rights is about?"
Umm... no...
First of all, they have rights to it because they are qualified to write prescriptions for pharmaceutical drugs. Secondly, why would an MD, who has drugs that he/she KNOWS works, use a "natural" product that he/she doesn't know works and knows nothing about? Simple, they wouldn't. So why do YOU need hundreds of drugs in your arsenal that you don't have the qualifications to use?
(3) Whether you have "extensive medical training" or not, the government found you unfit to prescribe because your training doesn't meet the medical standards that the government has set for the province. This sudden turn around is dangerous if not for one and one reason alone.
Lowering the standards of our health care system.
Yes, it could be argued that MDs make mistakes (I believe it's been mentioned several times on this blog). Absolutely, of course they do, and sometimes stuff gets prescribed to the wrong people and some people even get hurt. We aren't naive on here; we all understand that. However, that being said, these said MDs STILL have had the training and the qualifications that you don't have.
We have medical standards in place to minimize the potential danger to our population. I agree with the person on here who said that they didn't think that we are suddenly going to have our emergency rooms full because NDs get prescription rights. But by allowing NDs the right to prescribe, we lower those standards just by having this initiative in place. This Bill, if passed, would mean that our standards are just a little bit lower. Also, the potential to cause harm is increased... just a little bit more. I for one am not Ok with that.
This initiative is being put in place to make health care better, yet if we do this we end up lowering the standards of health care in this country.
RE: Kimberly: What proof do I have that Pharmacists make their living selling drugs? Really? You refer to my post as nonsense because I claim that Pharmacists make their living selling drugs? I guess technically I don't have any proof that a chef benefits from the sale of food at his restaurant, but it seems like a pretty reasonable assumption to me.
You asked me what my point was. I thought it was pretty clear. All I'm saying in my post is that NDs alongside MDs is a great way to promote better health and that Scott's portrayal of NDs as magicians prescribing raccon-fur and magical energy healing is off the mark.
I didn't say that diet and excercise can cure every ailment (although it can certainly help prevent a great deal of them) or that pharmaceutical drugs don't work.
It's one thing to not feel that NDs offer anything useful. Its another thing to publish or defend an article like this painting all NDs with the same brush and portraying them as frauds. Do you or Scott have any personal experience with NDs or do your opinions on the subject stem solely from fear?
You directly accused Scott of personally profiting from selling prescription drugs. Prove it. That specific accusation is nonsense. Pharmacists are HCPs working for a company for a salary - that company sells the products of other companies. Pharmacies also sell homeopathic remedies and herbal supplements. NDs don't work for free. There's no reason to believe that NDs have something to offer just because MD care isn't perfect.
NDs paint themselves with a brush of illegitimacy by not standardizing their practice and cracking down on useless therapies. Scott just pointed it out for all to see.
Fear. Adorable. Surely if we don't agree with ND practice that means we're afraid and don't understand. As opposed to, say, have looked at this objectively and are genuinely concerned for public safety because there aren't enough safety measures and oversight in place *before* handing out permission to dispense drugs to people who proudly had a display at the Whole Life Expo this weekend with people who promote ear candling. They do a disservice to themselves by not distancing themselves from this sort of dangerous nonsense.
You are apparently not interested in legitimate discussion so much as you're interested in (unsuccessfully) discrediting Scott and making ad hominem attacks. It really speaks to the quality of the NDs' (and supporters) arguments when criticism is handled this badly and taken so personally (also see the Nazi reference above).
@ Ver:
"1. "why can't we explaing the mechanism of action of so many pharmaceuticals (and, granted, botanicals)? Interesting to note as well, that symptoms are often subjective reports..."
You are once again confusing an outcome measure with an investigation of mechanism - mechanism, in research, is relatively independent of outcome. You can measure improvement in a patient without knowing the working mechanism yet.
Also it's a bit disingenuous to word it like "so many pharmaceuticals" - it's mostly pharmaceuticals that are new and still being studied and especially those that relate to neurotransmitters. The latter is related to our continuing learning about the brain, not precisely limits in pharmaceutical knowledge.
Anyway, the effects are documented with outcome measures in reliable RCTs, independent of mechanism.
Subjective reports do form the *basis* of investigation, but to ensure that this is a widespread and predictable effect (i.e., that it will work for a lot of people and won't cause harm in those people) we need further investigation with objective measures and investigation with RCTs.
People can be really bad at describing their feelings of health and each person varies wildly in description even if their *objective* experience is the same (i.e., 2 people can be the same amount of tense, but one could report it a 5 and one could report it a 10 - a measurement of tension, such as muscle tone or BP is more objective).
Many therapies and drugs have been dropped over the years that neither of us have even heard about due to lack of promise during further testing. Unfortunately, some "therapies" like homeopathy have almost a religious following that are convinced that it works despite mountains of evidence otherwise and (separately) no evidence whatsoever to support the mechanism of chemical "memory" in water.
many thanks for this article and thread. it will provide much useful info for my email to the MPPs about what naturopathy really is and in some of their own words, completely in context of course.
Mike, do you enjoy a drink? Ever made gravy or mixed latex paint or cement? How about mixing oil and gas for a two-cycle engine?
What happens if you mess up the ratio of mix to stuff and use too much or too little water?
The drink will be too strong or too weak. The paint and the gravy will be thick or thin as will the cement which won't set properly if at all and will likely fail far sooner. As for the engine, either way will mess it up.
Go make your kids favourite Kool-Aid. Use the recommended amounts for the powder and sugar, if needed, for one jug. But, and it's a big but like mine. Do not use the recommended water.
Instead, fill your bathtub, then add the powder and or sugar for one jug.
Ask the little sugar experts if tastes as good as mommy makes it. ;)
If you had happened to have made strawberry, I wonder if it would even be red. It most certainly wouldn't be if you are lucky enough to have been able to use a swimming pool, rather than a tub.
That's dilution as common sense and science shows us.
Naturopathy tells us the exact opposite but with some special shaking to create the effect of increased potency.
Yet they claim to follow science and they do as is convenient for their industry - http://www.boiron.com/en/htm/homeopathic-laboratory/financial-datas.htm - Boiron up 22% third quarter making hundreds of homeopathic "medicines" and patented ones too. Sounds like a smart add to anyone's profile, even if they work for Mercke.
But when science gives them bad results, out the window it goes...
As the naturopathic industry whispers, trust me
The fear gambit, really?
As old as the myth of homeopathy itself.
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